Leak in pressure water system

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joe70

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Hello. I have some kind of leak in my house water pressure system.
System is about 15 years old. 1/2 hp pump in a cistern about 6 ft. down. There is a new check valve about 3 ft from the pump. I have a CSV installed 5 ft. from the pressure tank. Tank is 20gal. New pressure switch and new
pressure gauge installed.
Problem is pump keeps coming on about every 13 mins as pressure gauge goes down to pump on at 30psi/off at 50psi
.This started cycling on and off every 26 mins. Now down to every 13mins.
I have checked house for water damaged walls. None. Shut off all toilet valves, still short cycle.
I have ordered a new 16gal. tank and will install when I get it. Also will install a new Tee tank kit when I get it.
I am thinking of changing the 5 to 6ft of copper pipe in the cistern and maybe a new pump. Any ideas? Thank you for any help.
 

Reach4

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No valve right after the pressure tank? That is usual to have.

So either a leak that is not a toilet, or a leaking check valve at the pump.

Not related to your cycling, but a flow inducer is good on a pump in a cistern or big casing. Just do that if you are pulling the pump anyway, and I suspect you will be doing that when/if you replace that check valve.
 

joe70

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No valve right after the pressure tank? That is usual to have.

So either a leak that is not a toilet, or a leaking check valve at the pump.

Not related to your cycling, but a flow inducer is good on a pump in a cistern or big casing. Just do that if you are pulling the pump anyway, and I suspect you will be doing that when/if you replace that check valve.
What kind of valve after pressure tank? I do have an on off valve installed after pressure tank. Check valve installed 3 days ago, no improvement. Leak somewhere in the house will be a nightmare. I'm in mexico and house is made of cement and cement block. I'm planning to update copper pipe from pump, up to pressure tank.
 

Reach4

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What kind of valve after pressure tank? I do have an on off valve installed after pressure tank. Check valve installed 3 days ago, no improvement. Leak somewhere in the house will be a nightmare. I'm in mexico and house is made of cement and cement block. I'm planning to update copper pipe from pump, up to pressure tank.
Close that on/off valve installed after pressure tank, and see if the cycling continues. If it does, the check valve is leaking.
 

Valveman

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Like Reach said if after closing that valve you still loose pressure, the check valve on the pump is leaking (easy fix). If the pressure holds with that valve closed, the leak is after that valve. A leak after the valve cannot be helped with a check valve or a different pressure tank. A larger pressure tank would supply the leak for a longer time before the pump comes on, but it will still cycle to supply the leak. The leak could also be in a place that could cause damage to the structure, so you really need to find and/or fix the leak. Maybe just run another line above ground as a temp bypass?
 

joe70

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Close that on/off valve installed after pressure tank, and see if the cycling continues. If it does, the check valve is leaking.
OK. I shut the valve after the tank that feed the house. I waited 12 mins. No change on pressure gauge. When I turned that valve back on, the pressure went from 50psi to 32psi.
Then I filled the tank back up to 50psi, left the valve open after the tank but shut the valve off before the tank but after the check valve and pump.
Waited 10 mins and the tank lost pressure. Sounds like it's the tank.
 

Reach4

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1. I don't agree with your conclusion. I base that on "I shut the valve after the tank that feed the house. I waited 12 mins. No change on pressure gauge. When I turned that valve back on, the pressure went from 50psi to 32psi." I think there is no way that a non-leaking tank could explain your symptoms.
2. The pressure switch should be at the tank, and there should be no valve before the pressure switch.
3. I really don't understand this sentence: "Then I filled the tank back up to 50psi, left the valve open after the tank but shut the valve off before the tank but after the check valve and pump."
 

Bannerman

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I shut the valve after the tank that feed the house. I waited 12 mins. No change on pressure gauge. When I turned that valve back on, the pressure went from 50psi to 32psi.
By shutting off the valve AFTER the pressure tank, you isolated the house plumbing from the pressure tank, pressure switch and pump. Assuming the pump did not turn on during that time, since the PT & pump supply did not loose pressure, that proved there is no leak in those components.

Assuming no one opened a valve or flushed a toilet while you had the after tank valve closed, the significant pressure drop after opening the valve indicates the leak is somewhere after the valve.

I filled the tank back up to 50psi, left the valve open after the tank but shut the valve off before the tank but after the check valve and pump.
Waited 10 mins and the tank lost pressure. Sounds like it's the tank.
You isolated the pressure tank from the pump supply to prevent additional water from entering the P tank, but opened the connection from the P tank to the house plumbing. Since the first test above indicated the leak is located somewhere within the home's plumbing system, of course that leak will then cause the water from within the P tank to be depleted while it continued to supply the source of the leak.

In a process of elimination, is your home equipped with any equipment that receives water from the plumbing system?

Equipment could include a Reverse Osmosis water filtration system which flows water continuously to drain whenever it is refilling the pressurized storage tank, but the Auto Shutoff valve could remain stuck open which would allow some water to flow continuously to drain even while no water is being filtered.

Other potential sources of leakage include a hydronic air conditioning system, water treatment systems (softener or backwashing filtration system), a partially stuck open irrigation solenoid, and water could seep continuously from a defective water heater pressure relief valve or a toilet that requires a new flush valve flapper.
 

joe70

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1. I don't agree with your conclusion. I base that on "I shut the valve after the tank that feed the house. I waited 12 mins. No change on pressure gauge. When I turned that valve back on, the pressure went from 50psi to 32psi." I think there is no way that a non-leaking tank could explain your symptoms.
2. The pressure switch should be at the tank, and there should be no valve before the pressure switch.
3. I really don't understand this sentence: "Then I filled the tank back up to 50psi, left the valve open after the tank but shut the valve off before the tank but after the check valve and pump."
# 1. If your saying the tank is leaking, I agree. When I turned the valve that is installedafter the tank back on, the pressure gauge showed the pressure to be approx. 32psi. immediately.
#2. The pressure switch is installed at the tank. That is correct.
#3. The valve installed before the tank in about 2 ft. away from the tank and 9 ft. away from the check valve and pump.
So after opening the valve after that is installed after the tank, I then closed the valve that is attached after the pump and check valve, but before the tank. And the pressure continued to drop also immediately. Tank leaking?
 

joe70

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# 1. If your saying the tank is leaking, I agree. When I turned the valve that is installedafter the tank back on, the pressure gauge showed the pressure to be approx. 32psi. immediately.
#2. The pressure switch is installed at the tank. That is correct.
#3. The valve installed before the tank in about 2 ft. away from the tank and 9 ft. away from the check valve and pump.
So after opening the valve after that is installed after the tank, I then closed the valve that is attached after the pump and check valve, but before the tank. And the pressure continued to drop also immediately. Tank leaking?
I think I'm just looking for easy fix. If the leak is in walls of house I think I should have see water leaking by now. Concrete and cement block house. I'm going to replace tank and new tee kit and see if it helps. Tank is 15 years old. Can't hurt. After that, if still having trouble, I hope to find a specialist here on the island, but I doubt there are any. Thank you for your help and I will update. I ordered the parts for install, just don't know when I will get them.
 

Reach4

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# 1. If your saying the tank is leaking, I agree. When I turned the valve that is installedafter the tank back on, the pressure gauge showed the pressure to be approx. 32psi. immediately.
#2. The pressure switch is installed at the tank. That is correct.
#3. The valve installed before the tank in about 2 ft. away from the tank and 9 ft. away from the check valve and pump.
So after opening the valve after that is installed after the tank, I then closed the valve that is attached after the pump and check valve, but before the tank. And the pressure continued to drop also immediately. Tank leaking?
1) I think your description implies that the tank is not leaking. When you close the valve after the tank, the pressure holds.

3)I think you are saying that the pressure dropped when you opened the valve after the tank. That would tend to indicate a leak downstream of that valve.
 

joe70

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1) I think your description implies that the tank is not leaking. When you close the valve after the tank, the pressure holds.

3)I think you are saying that the pressure dropped when you opened the valve after the tank. That would tend to indicate a leak downstream of that valve.
Thank you your help.
 

joe70

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By shutting off the valve AFTER the pressure tank, you isolated the house plumbing from the pressure tank, pressure switch and pump. Assuming the pump did not turn on during that time, since the PT & pump supply did not loose pressure, that proved there is no leak in those components.

Assuming no one opened a valve or flushed a toilet while you had the after tank valve closed, the significant pressure drop after opening the valve indicates the leak is somewhere after the valve.


You isolated the pressure tank from the pump supply to prevent additional water from entering the P tank, but opened the connection from the P tank to the house plumbing. Since the first test above indicated the leak is located somewhere within the home's plumbing system, of course that leak will then cause the water from within the P tank to be depleted while it continued to supply the source of the leak.

In a process of elimination, is your home equipped with any equipment that receives water from the plumbing system?

Equipment could include a Reverse Osmosis water filtration system which flows water continuously to drain whenever it is refilling the pressurized storage tank, but the Auto Shutoff valve could remain stuck open which would allow some water to flow continuously to drain even while no water is being filtered.

Other potential sources of leakage include a hydronic air conditioning system, water treatment systems (softener or backwashing filtration system), a partially stuck open irrigation solenoid, and water could seep continuously from a defective water heater pressure relief valve or a toilet that requires a new flush valve flapper.
Thank you for your help.
 

joe70

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By shutting off the valve AFTER the pressure tank, you isolated the house plumbing from the pressure tank, pressure switch and pump. Assuming the pump did not turn on during that time, since the PT & pump supply did not loose pressure, that proved there is no leak in those components.

Assuming no one opened a valve or flushed a toilet while you had the after tank valve closed, the significant pressure drop after opening the valve indicates the leak is somewhere after the valve.


You isolated the pressure tank from the pump supply to prevent additional water from entering the P tank, but opened the connection from the P tank to the house plumbing. Since the first test above indicated the leak is located somewhere within the home's plumbing system, of course that leak will then cause the water from within the P tank to be depleted while it continued to supply the source of the leak.

In a process of elimination, is your home equipped with any equipment that receives water from the plumbing system?

Equipment could include a Reverse Osmosis water filtration system which flows water continuously to drain whenever it is refilling the pressurized storage tank, but the Auto Shutoff valve could remain stuck open which would allow some water to flow continuously to drain even while no water is being filtered.

Other potential sources of leakage include a hydronic air conditioning system, water treatment systems (softener or backwashing filtration system), a partially stuck open irrigation solenoid, and water could seep continuously from a defective water heater pressure relief valve or a toilet that requires a new flush valve flapper.
Thank you for your help.
 

GReynolds929

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So if I'm reading this correctly, you came here asking for advice, advice was given, and you're choosing to ignore said advice because you don't want it to be true.

If the tank was leaking the pressure would have dropped when the valve after the tank was closed....it's not the tank...
 

joe70

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Not ignoring suggestion. Tank is 15 years old. Already ordered new one. Will get a pressure tank specialist to look at what may be a leak in house plumbing if I could find one here on the island in mexico. Not an easy task, but will try. Thanks for your input.
 

joe70

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Not ignoring suggestion. Tank is 15 years old. Already ordered new one. Will get a pressure tank specialist to look at what may be a leak in house plumbing if I could find one here on the island in mexico. Not an easy task, but will try. Thanks for your input.
Update
Leak increased to filling up the pressure tank every 5 mins. Had to turn pump on only when needed. Plumbers came and found leak in shower floor with the leaking pipe being from the hot water tank. No evidence of leaked water anywhere inside or outside. When they shut the hot water off at the hot water tank, the pressure tank stopped losing water. Kept the hot water off and had water through out the house. They came back the next day and repaired the leak and everything is like new again. We used (CPVC) to replace rotted copper pipe. Should last long after I'm dead. Thanks for your help.
 

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