Issues with CSV and GPM issues (may be unrelated)

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Randyacton

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Had to have a new well drilled (pump was only a year old so used in new well).

Driller guessed at 12gpm, so I ran with a new softener and iron filter as the Kinetico was at least 25 years old and tired.

All seemed to work fine but just a couple weeks after I installed filters, the pressure tank took a dump. Decided to hook up a CSV1A that I bought years ago and never used.

As a side note the softener worked fine from day one, the iron filter (katalox light) seemed to get worse after CSV install. So the iron filter has been bypassed for about a year.

So Saturday I decide to mess with CSV and switch pressures and run into an issue. I call my well guy and he shows up this morning.

He fixes my issue but also calls Grundfos about my issue with flow for the iron filter but also mentions the CSV. Rep says "if he has had csv installed for that long it shouldn't be a problem with the pump....but expect an early failure and we don't recommend.

Here is my issue with the CSV. Most of my fixtures are "left wing" compliant and pump actually cycles more. I belive in the concept of the CSV..guess I am just not the right user.

So to make a long story just a bit longer.....going back to 1 or more pressure tanks (due to size constraints). My well pump is good for 10gpm (didn't know this when I purchased katalox).

So here is the question. Since a 1" pipe is good for more than 40 gpm at 60 psi, will 2 or mor pressure tanks increase gpm to my sysyem?
 

Fitter30

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Do you know the model and hp of the pump? The depth of the pump and water level? Can call grundfos ask them what the shut off pressure should be and amps. With gauge, shut off and amp meter can see how close to spec the pump is. Also would like gauges before and after the softener for pressure drop.
 

Bannerman

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Most of my fixtures are "left wing" compliant and pump actually cycles more.
Explain what is meant by 'fixtures are "left wing" compliant'.
Clarify what you mean by 'pump actually cycles more'.

I decide to mess with CSV and switch pressures and run into an issue.
Describe the adjustments you performed.

Describe how you adjusted the pressure tank's air precharge pressure in relation to your newly altered pressure switch Cut-In pressure.
 

Chucky_ott

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Explain what is meant by 'fixtures are "left wing" compliant'.

I think he means "low flow"...as if only left-leaning people should be concerned about water usage. I get that these fixtures can be annoying when you are not subjected to droughts.
 

LLigetfa

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As a side note the softener worked fine from day one, the iron filter (katalox light) seemed to get worse after CSV install. So the iron filter has been bypassed for about a year.
More information may be required WRT the iron filter and how much and what type of iron is present. First off, is the water being aerated to precipitate the iron? This is usually done with a micronizer and a HP tank both of which are high-maintenance items that iron tends to build up in. Iron can even buildup on and in the pump volutes and piping. This buildup can be made worse if chlorine is used to shock the well.

One inch pipe was mentioned and from experience, I can say that enough iron can buildup inside one inch pipe to reduce the GPM. Bypassing the iron filter at the head does not mitigate either of these. I upsized all of the piping between my micronizer and softener to 1 1/4" to reduce the frequency of having to service it.

There is no mention of manganese but that can also be present alongside iron and can build up on and in most everything choking the flow. When I pulled my old pump. it was caked in a 1/4" thick layer.
 

Valveman

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He fixes my issue but also calls Grundfos about my issue with flow for the iron filter but also mentions the CSV. Rep says "if he has had csv installed for that long it shouldn't be a problem with the pump....but expect an early failure and we don't recommend.

Here is my issue with the CSV. Most of my fixtures are "left wing" compliant and pump actually cycles more. I belive in the concept of the CSV..guess I am just not the right user.

So to make a long story just a bit longer.....going back to 1 or more pressure tanks (due to size constraints). My well pump is good for 10gpm (didn't know this when I purchased katalox).

So here is the question. Since a 1" pipe is good for more than 40 gpm at 60 psi, will 2 or mor pressure tanks increase gpm to my sysyem?
He fixes my issue but also calls Grundfos about my issue with flow for the iron filter but also mentions the CSV. Rep says "if he has had csv installed for that long it shouldn't be a problem with the pump....but expect an early failure and we don't recommend.
I don't expect Grundfos to like the CSV as it makes pumps last longer and greatly cuts into their pump replacement business model. Saying things like "expect and early failure and we don't recommend, without explaining why is very common. BECAUSE, if they studied how the CSV works, they would realize everything about the CSV is good for the pump/motor. Which again, is exactly why pump manufacturers do not like Cycle Stop Valves. The above statement proves they will lie to your face to keep you from getting the benefits of a longer pump life from a CSV. Oh, and the CSV also replaces those expensive and short lived VFD pump controls manufacturers are spending billions advertising. Where do you think they get those billions to advertise with? They get it from people who believe the lies about VFD's and spend way too much money on things that don't last very long and also do not save any energy as they were led to believe.

Here is my issue with the CSV. Most of my fixtures are "left wing" compliant and pump actually cycles more. I belive in the concept of the CSV..guess I am just not the right user.
Now that is funny I don't care who you are! I am guessing "left wing" means "low flow appliances". I cannot believe the powers that be are trying to keep us divided all the way down to what kind of shower head we use? So right wingers waste water and left wingers conserve water. Yeah right.

The Cycle Stop Valve will work for everyone, no matter if you use those low flow appliances that make you run around in the shower to get wet or not. Even with a small tank there is no way a CSV will allow a pump to cycle shorter times than recommended by the pump/motor manufacturers. With a CSV that has a 1 GPM minimum and a 4.5 gallon size tank that holds 1 gallon of water, the worst case scenario is using 0.5 GPM for long periods of time. While using 0.5 GPM the CSV is allowing through only 1 GPM. This lets 0.5 GPM go to the tap that is open and the other 0.5 GPM fill the pressure tank in about 1 minute. When the tank is full it has 1 gallon stored to use, which will supply the 0.5 GPM tap for 2 minutes before the pump is started again. This is 1 minute on and 2 minutes off for the pump, which is better than what the manufacturers recommend of least 1 minute on and 1 minute off.

But of course, low flow appliances like showers and sinks are not used for very long periods of time, which makes it unimportant. No one should leave the tap open while brushing teeth or washing hands anyway, as that is a big waste of water. Being conservative, at least with water use, all people should be able to brush teeth or wash hands 5-10 times with the 1 gallon that is in the pressure tank. But if you let low flow appliances or low flow irrigation run at less than 1 GPM, the CSV will allow the pump to cycles during that time. We always recommend a slightly larger tank with systems like this. Using the CSV with even a 20 gallon tank that only holds 5 gallons of water, at 0.5 GPM flow, the CSV can make the pump run for 5 minutes to fill the tank. Then the 5 gallons in the tank will supply the 0.5 GPM flow for 10 minutes before the pump starts. That way 5 minutes on and 10 minutes off is the worst case for cycling that is possible with the CSV.

So to make a long story just a bit longer.....going back to 1 or more pressure tanks (due to size constraints). My well pump is good for 10gpm (didn't know this when I purchased katalox). So here is the question. Since a 1" pipe is good for more than 40 gpm at 60 psi, will 2 or mor pressure tanks increase gpm to my sysyem?
From this statement I assume the problem is low flow or gpm? Adding a larger pressure tank is not going to increase flow. You have a 10 GPM pump and that is what supplies flow, not the tank. The tank actually just another demand for the pump to supply. If your pump is cycling on and off, especially with a CSV, the pump is supplying more flow than you are using. If the pump or CSV is the reason for low flow, the pressure would also be low and just stay that way. If the pressure gauge reads anywhere between the on and off settings of 40 and 60, you have all the flow you need. If that flow is not getting to the faucets and the pressure seems weak at the faucets, it is not at the pump. That means something like a filter, softener, or partially closed valve is restricting what the CSV is trying to give you.

I call my well guy and he shows up this morning. He fixes my issue....

What did the well guy do that made you think he "fixed the issue"? Because it wasn't the Cycle Stop Valve.
 

Bannerman

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I think he means "low flow"...as if only left-leaning people should be concerned about water usage.
I too would 'guess' that is what was meant, but, this forum is intended to request feedback, assistance and advice from posters with relevant knowledge, regardless of political affiliation. There is an expectation for questions to be clear and concise, so readers & responders will not need to 'think', 'guess' or 'assume' what is being said/asked.

Randyaction said he "decide to mess with CSV and switch pressures and run into an issue". He didn't specify what the issue was, nor did he state what changes were performed, nor if the pressure tank pre-charge pressure had been adjusted in relation to the new PS settings.

The words 'mess with' are always a concern since that implies, the person may not fully understand how the system functions, or what the settings should be to function correctly, but often means, performing random adjustments in a trial and error fashion.

Perhaps the PS setting is now at the extreme edge of the pump's capability to deliver. Maybe, the CSV pressure setting is no longer at the midpoint within the pressure switch pressure range, especially if utilizing a small pressure tank. It's also possible the P tank precharge pressure is too high, so no/little water is entering the tank, causing the pump becoming activated almost immediately once any faucet is turned on, and vice versa.

Since he said the 'pump actually cycles more' with the CSV in place, he needs to define what is meant by 'cycling', or water usage conditions while this is occuring. Assuming his PK1A kit is equipped with a 4-gallon tank containing at most, only 1 gallon water, the pump will be activated much more quickly than he maybe accustomed to. He could also be calling 'cycling', as the pump no longer shutting off for the entire time water continues to flow to faucets/appliances.

Further info and clarification is needed.
 
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