Cycle stop Valve help

[LLigetfa]

I have no clue what the low cut out would be, how would I test that?

Turn the pump breaker off.
Remove the cover from the Square-D.
Watch the pressure gauge and the contacts while you drain the tank.
You will see the contacts close. The gauge will indicate the cut-in setting.
Continue draining the tank. The contacts will open. The gauge will indicate the low cut-out pressure.
Close the draincock.
Put the cover back on. Turn the breaker back on. Hold the reset lever "just so" until the pressure exceeds the low cut-out pressure.

 

[Maxbrandy]

OK I will try that tomorrow afternoon,

Still wondering why the pressure is drooping so low, not like I am exceeding the demand?

I will report the finding back to you

Thank you LL

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Still wondering why the pressure is drooping so low, not like I am exceeding the demand?

See https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?10547-Pressure-tank-losses-pressure-for-5-10-seconds for one possible explanation.

 

[LLigetfa]

That thread left more questions than answers.

One possibility is that draw does in fact exceed supply but not in the traditional sense. There could be a leak stealing some of the supply capacity. If there is a topside checkvalve, it will mask a leak in the line. As long as the leak is small enough for the pump to reach the cut-off pressure, it can go unnoticed for a long time. A neighbor had a leak that got progressively worse. For months he was arguing with the PoCo over his high electric bill. He only finally realized the cause when the pump could no longer reach the high pressure cut-off.

Other low flow cases have been attributed to galvanized pipe/fittings that had so much internal corrosion that they narrowed to smaller than a pencil. Looks fine on the outside but passes very little water.

One concern I have is the size of pump (1 HP) relative to the high water level (20 feet). If a pump does not have enough head (resistance) on startup, it can suffer from upthrust which wears down the tops of the impellers.

 

[DonL]

Turn the pump breaker off.
Remove the cover from the Square-D.
Watch the pressure gauge and the contacts while you drain the tank.
You will see the contacts close. The gauge will indicate the cut-in setting.
Continue draining the tank. The contacts will open. The gauge will indicate the low cut-out pressure.
Close the draincock.
Put the cover back on. Turn the breaker back on. Hold the reset lever "just so" until the pressure exceeds the low cut-out pressure.

Good advice.

Also a good idea is to look at the Switch Contacts and clean them with the power off, and tighten the connections.

It could just be that the pump is not starting, because the contact do not make every time.

Clean the ants out while you are inside the switch too.

Is your pump a three wire pump ? Do you have a Pump Control Box ?


Good Luck

 

[LLigetfa]

Ja, lots of possibilities. Could also be a failing cap that causes the pump to thermal overload. By the time you get to reset the switch, the pump (and cap) would have cooled.

Diagnosing over the internet is much harder than being there.

 

[DonL]

If the motor does use a Capacitor it could be bad, and it can be hit or miss for a pump start.

Cold or Hot Temperature affects caps just like batteries.

I use the low pressure cut off switches, and yes it is a PITA to reset.

But there IS a problem if you have to reset it.


Many people disable safety devices that are just doing their job.

Bad Idea...

 

[LLigetfa]

But there IS a problem if you have to reset it.

I disagree. It may be a symptom but not necessarily a problem. Mine would trip when demand exceeded supply. For example, the wife filling her soaker tub, flushing the toilet, and drawing water at the sink. Another nuisance trip is on power fail. When the power comes back on, the pump wouldn't. With the EPS15/99 neither of those are an issue.

Many people disable safety devices that are just doing their job.

Bad Idea...

I don't see how that can be categorized as a safety device. Are you saying the Square-D switches that don't have the low pressure cut-off are inherently unsafe? IMHO, they are a half-baked idea that hasn't been fully thought out and are mostly a marketing gimmick.

 

[Valveman]

A lot of times the trip on low pressure is caused by too much air in the pressure tank. Anytime the bladder hits the bottom of the tank, the low pressure will trip off. So no matter what pressure it is set to shut off, a low pressure “safety switch” will always go off at exactly the same pressure as the air charge in a bladder tank. Without a bladder style tank, sometimes the switch is just mounted too far from the pressure tank.

However, low-pressure switches are supposed to go off when demand exceeds supply, and that is what they do. Yes it is a pain to crawl under the house to reset a pressure switch. Yes it is hard to tell the wife she only has a 5 GPM pump, and so she can only fill her tube with the fill valve ½ way open. Yes it is agonizing to explain to the brother in law over the phone how to crawl under the house to reset the pressure switch after a power outage or after she “overfilled” the tub. But those little levers on the side of that switch have saved countless pumps from running when there is no water to pump. The only time they don’t work on a dry well application is when no water is actually being used, and the pump runs dry while trying to refill the pressure tank.

I use the Allen Bradley 836 as a low pressure kill for more technical pump systems. It is infinitely adjustable to the pressure and bandwidth you want to work at. However, it doesn’t have the little lever to reset with, and it can’t do both jobs with one switch. I have to use one switch to turn the pump on/off at the regular 90/100, and wire it in combination with another switch so I can set a low pressure shut down for 60 PSI. This way it takes two pressure switches for each pump, and you need a way to bypass the low-pressure switch just to get the system up to 60 PSI. I use a push and hold button to bypass the low-pressure switch until the system is charged.

As I said earlier, there are situations where a low-pressure kill will not shut the system off when the pump runs dry. For that reason I use a Dry Well device like the Cycle Sensor. These devices look at amp draw instead of pressure. They can tell if the pump is running dry under any condition.

I use the low-pressure kill to prevent flooding during a major line break, not for dry well protection. A line break can turn a golf course into a lake by the time someone wakes up in the morning. So a low-pressure kill is very important on larger systems.

Also when using a Cycle Sensor for Dry Well Protection, it can be set to restart automatically between 1 and 500 minutes. That way you can tell the wife to cut the tub fill in half, and wait one minute for the pump to come back on. Happy wife, happy life!

 

[LLigetfa]

I use the low-pressure kill to prevent flooding during a major line break, not for dry well protection.

Yes, that use has crossed my mind. If the low cut-off on the Square-D were adjustable or even fixed at a much lower setpoint like your EPS is, then I would probably still be using one. One thing I do like about your EPS is that the wife can reset it at the breaker panel without having to go down into the crawlspace. Most times she doesn't even need to since it resets itself when the power comes back on.

Now if only her sat dish receiver would reset to her fav list, I'd be living the dream.

 

[Maxbrandy]

Hello Gentleman.....

I been gone for a while ... work got crazy ...
So I still have the problem... since the last time I posted I replaced the switch with new one 40/60.
Still no rhythm nor reason for this to lose pressure.

So the pump cuts in at 40 cuts out at 60.... the cut off is between 25 - 30.

what I notice to night, because the pressure lost when doing a load of laundry.... last time was yesterday morning. So what I notice is, when water is being used and the pressure drops down to 40, the pump kicks on BUT the pressure continued to drop , now only the wash machine was being used.... as I watch the pressure drop, all the sudden I heard a little noise and the the pressure jumped up to 45 and rose to the 50 that I have the CSV set to. Now why would this happen? This driving me nuts...

I check the pressure tank again, that was 35 psi

why would pump turn on at 40, pressure continue to drop on the gauge... then all the sudden something seemed to release and pressure jumped up to where it should be.

when ever I have to reset pump... gauge shows 0... I reset, gauge jumps up to 30 ish and climbs to the 60 cut off

Not sure since I havent replied in a few weeks if this post is still active

 

[LLigetfa]

So what I notice is, when water is being used and the pressure drops down to 40, the pump kicks on BUT the pressure continued to drop...

What do you mean by the pump kicks on? How do you know?

I'm guessing the switch closes to energize the control box but perhaps the control box has a bad starting cap and so the pump may not actually start.

 

[Maxbrandy]

Yes , the switch closes, I don;t know that the pump is actually kicking on right away. Would the bad cap delay the start of the pump? So if say the pressure was at 55 instead of 42 , it would actually start before it reach the cutoff point?

The pump is a UT203, its less then a year old, had to buy this one because the old one died on a Saturday afternoon and lowes was my only option, doing a little research I am seeing that this pump isn't tops on the list.

 

[LLigetfa]

Did the control box get replaced with the pump? A bad cap can make for hard starts. The low pressure cut-off point follows below the low pressure cut-in so the delta will not change by changing the cut-in setpoint.

If you could put an ammeter on the circuit to monitor the current draw when the pressure switch closes yet the pressure continues to drop, that will tell you whether you are in a locked rotor situation at the time.

 

[DonL]

Did the control box get replaced with the pump?

That pump should not use a control box.

It is rated at 230Volts 9.8 Amps.

A clamp on amp meter would tell what is happening. You could have a loose wire connection going to the pump.


Does a Cycle Stop Valve go bad ? How long do they last ?


Good Luck.

 

[Maxbrandy]

This is a 2 wire pump, all motor controls are deep deep deep in the well....
I will pick up a amp meter from a buddy and see if thats the issue, The pump isnt even a year old so if it is bad better off finding out now.

 

[Maxbrandy]

DonL.....

I am not sure if the valve goes bad , I would think it would, my understanding is it just restrict flow but I could be wrong.

I am starting to lean toward the motor being bad, will do the test with meter and see what it tell me

 

[DonL]

DonL.....

I am not sure if the valve goes bad , I would think it would, my understanding is it just restrict flow but I could be wrong.

I am starting to lean toward the motor being bad, will do the test with meter and see what it tell me

Looks like you have a 1 year warranty on that pump.

If the wiring is intact and the pressure switch is working, there is not much else to go bad.


Good Luck.

 

[Maxbrandy]

Yes its 1 year .... but a I cant wait till it craps out for good.

I will test the amps today.... if its bad then next step is to determine what pump I should get to replace it, because there is NO way the same pump is going in the ground. These things don't fail in July... the crap out in the middle of winter. Not a real hard job but its cold out...LOL

Then the fight will begin with Lowes refunding my money ... Yippppeeeeee

 

[Reach4]

How much pipe, or anything else, is between your pressure switch and your pressure tank?

How much time lapses between the pump switch turning on and the pressure gauge starting to go up?