(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 124

Thread: Do I need a softener?

  1. #61
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,712
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    My wife is a drop dead gorgeous black woman weighing in at 110 pounds, and I will take your advice, the ten gallon setting may get me to lose certain privilages that I have grown accustomed to if it accidentaly got to her.

    The problem with never upsetting the ladies of the house, is that I am outnumberd 4-1.

    My 6 year old daughter usually sides with me, but she is also a very good hockey player.
    Name:  hockey 320X240.jpg
Views: 101
Size:  22.6 KB
    She can also solder copper pipe fairly well too.

  2. #62
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    1,471

    Default

    The dance that we men do....... like trying to take a seat on a knife blade.

  3. #63
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    166

    Default

    Thanks for all the good info guys!! I shall start talking to some locals and see what prices run around here.

    And indeed, Akpsdvan, it's like a knife... and they cut just as well!

  4. #64
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    166

    Default

    So I called a couple of local dealers today... nobody carries the 7000. One dealer wanted to sell me a Kinetico non-electric, dual-tank system, installed, for the low low price of just $2800. But if I want to install it myself, they will knock $200 off the price.

    Pretty generous, considering all the plumbing and electricity is already there, just gotta plug it in and go!

  5. #65
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    166

    Default

    Ok, so I have a request in for pricing on a 7000SXT setup with a 1054 tank, but the seller is telling me I should go with the 5600 valve. He said the 7000 is overkill, and that he has had to repair more of them than the 5600 (of which he sells several per month).

    Other than higher flow rate, what does the 7000 offer over the 5600?

  6. #66
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,712
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Most of the 7000 repairs were early on when people did not undersatand that the valve has some safety items built into it. The system cant be taken apart unless the water is fully depressurised. if it was attampted, a 50 cent clip would "break". In all reality, it is designed to break rather than allow the customer to remove a part under pressure which could cause severe injury. Fleck did not do a good job explaining or training on this issue early on so many old timers got the impression that the valve was not up to par.

    The 5600 is an old dinosaur, but it is still very popular. I would highly recommend the 5600SXT over the 5600 econominder. The electronic control has a much better timer motor, is more compact (turbine meter), is very easy to program, and has some programmingin ti that will save you considerable salt. it can also be programmed to save considerable water. The 5600 is an electromechanical desin, with no electronics.

    I sell huge amounts of 7000SXT valves, and the repairs since it inception have been neglibe. There was a bad run on the boards a year ago, Fleck warrantied all of those. other than that, like the Clack valve, we almost never sell pistons, seal kits, motors, electronic boards, etc. it has been a bulletproof valve. The bypass is much better on the 7000, as is the meter. it also gets rid of all of the microswitches for one optical sensor, and has far fewer gears and parts.

    Most of the guys who still like the 5600 are simply more comfortable with them. I do training regularly, and over half of our dealers in the past 3 years have switched to the 7000 once they are comfortable with them.

    The 5600 is still a great valve, and if you go with it, it will serve you well for many years.

  7. #67
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    166

    Default

    A couple more questions... my house has the 2510/5600 brass yoke on the bypass tree, which means I "should" be able to plug right in once I get my tank and valve. But what about flex hoses (either copper or pex, for example) connecting the valve to the house? Can I get a threaded-out option on the valve?

    Also, one site lists 70/16M-48-C500 and 70/16T-48-C500 systems... I assume they mean METER & TIMER. But is there a diff between these two and the SXT?

  8. #68
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    1,471

    Default

    The SXT and the control board for the 7000 are the same, laid out a bit different because of the hook ups for the 7000 over the rest... and there is the brine first that the 7000 can do..

    Threaded out option on the valve?

  9. #69
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    166

    Default

    As you told me earlier, the valve is designed to connect to the house pipes via the plastic piece that has 4 male ends with o-rings.... but it seems to me that this rigid (plastic) connection may be susceptible to leaks/breaks. I was wondering if it would be better to have threaded fitting on the valve that would allow me to screw in some flex hose between the valve and the house plumbing.

  10. #70
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    1,471

    Default

    The brass yoke that is in place was hard wired in, there is a plastic yoke that is either 1" or 3/4" males that could have the flex tubing screw on it and a male adapter on the copper nipple that would be left after the brass yoke is removed.
    The 7000 has a few different tail accessories plastic and brass, plastic is male thread 1",3/4" and 1 1/4"
    The brass are sweat

  11. #71
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,712
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    I prefer to see systems installed with flex lines since this will allow the tank to "breathe" as pressure goes up and down, the tank height will change. This is not much of a problem as long as the plumbing has some flex to it. The bypass, meter, and plumbing connectos on the Fleck and Clack valve have some flec built into them as well to prevent damage to the systems over time.

    The 7000SXT has 3/4", 1", 1-1/4", and 1-1/2" plastic pipe connectors, and 3/4" to 1-1/2" sweat connectors. 90 degree adapters are also available for the 7000SXT to make plumbing them in a little easier. The best flex connectors I am aware of are the Falcon Stainless connectors. High flow, and great quality.

  12. #72
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    166

    Default

    Thanks, Ditto. The Falcon Megaflow stainless connectors look real nice! Their push-to-connect ones look very simple to use, I wonder how well they hold without leaking?

  13. #73
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,712
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    So far the push to connect have been holding up very well. I have not seen a single leaker yet, but they have only been available a couple years now. I would not hesitate to use them myself. We sell a lot of them, the whole falcon line has been very reliable, except for the original 3/4" ones, the seal on those were problematic, but that was a long time ago.

  14. #74
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Wherever I park the motorhome.
    Posts
    6,796

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ditttohead View Post
    I prefer to see systems installed with flex lines since this will allow the tank to "breathe" as pressure goes up and down, the tank height will change. This is not much of a problem as long as the plumbing has some flex to it. The bypass, meter, and plumbing connectos on the Fleck and Clack valve have some flec built into them as well to prevent damage to the systems over time.
    Mineral tanks usually have a max working pressure rating of 125 psi. Exceed that and they will eventually "breath" alright, by splitting open. Plumbing codes call for no more than 80 psi or you have to install a pressure regulator valve.

    Less pressure than that max will not make the tank increase in height or diameter by more than a couple thousands of an inch maybe. Otherwise millions of pieces of water treatment equipment that have been hard plumbed over the last 70 years would have sprung leaks, and they haven't.

    And Falcon flexible SS lines will not grow in diameter or length in any measurable way either.
    Last edited by Terry; 03-29-2012 at 12:21 PM.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  15. #75
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,712
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Mineral tanks usually have a max working pressure rating of 125 psi. Exceed that and they will eventually "breath" alright, by splitting open. Plumbing codes call for no more than 80 psi or you have to install a pressure regulator valve.

    Less pressure than that max will not make the tank increase in height or diameter by more than a couple thousands of an inch maybe. Otherwise millions of pieces of water treatment equipment that have been hard plumbed over the last 70 years would have sprung leaks, and they haven't.

    And Falcon flexible SS lines will not grow in diameter or length in any measurable way either.
    Sigh... are we really going to do this again? Is it a mandate that you express your opinion based on a lack of real world experience,
    rather than field work, manufacturers warranties/requirements, and actual lab testing?

    Please see the note below, from Pentair regarding mineral tanks.

    NOTE: Flexible connectors must be installed between hard piping and tank openings. These pressure vessels are rated for an internal
    negative pressure of 5 HG (17 Pa) vacuum below atmospheric. If negative pressure could ever exceed 5 Hg (17 Pa), an adequate
    vacuum breaker must also be properly installed. Failure to install flex connection properly, or improper installation of a vacuum breaker
    when required, may void the warranty.


    The reason for the flexible connectors is primarily due to the fact that mineral tanks will vary in size, as does every other pressure vessl ever manufactued since the beginning of time, as pressure increases or decreases. Try this and tell me where I am wrong. Take a 10x54 and rapidly pressurise it and depressurise it from 0-80 psi, and tell me that the diameter and height do not change. It is very minimal, but when you do it to the extreme as I just mentioned, you can and will see the tank grow and shrink. It is also measurable. unless the tank is some special tank that has the amazing ability to not be affected by pressure changes, then it will grow and shrink as pressure varies. I feel like I am teaching 6th grade science. It is also part of our mineral tank qualifications and testing protocols. Tanks are designed to handle these slight changes in height and width for many years without fail. The tank threads are what will usually fail if some flexibility is not designed into the system. Ever wonnder why all of the new residential valves now include flexible connections? Clack and Fleck have both engineered considerable flex into their connections to accomodate the systems "breathing" The bypass, meter, pipe connectors all have some flexibility built into them. Commercially, warranty requirements dictate that flexible connectors be used.

    I do not mind being corrected, and when I am wrong I consider it a learning experience. I would suggest you either do your research, do some commercial/industrial field work for 15 years, or maybe... trust the guys who have far more experience than you do and consider their advice. If you would like, I can go to my test bench and get you the reading for the height change between 0 psi and 100 PSI, and lets see if it a couple thousanths.

    I had our testers re-run the 10x54 test to see what the actual growth was, they are doing a full cycle test but so far they have given me the low pressure numbers.

    0-50 PSI, .0775" height gain
    0-70 PSI, .135" height gain

    Wow, looks a little more than a couple thousandths to me. Unless my math is wrong, I would say that we are seeing a growth of over 1/8". This is not insignificant and it does exist.

    I am not sure how else to answer you. According to our test facility, a USA made structural tank has significant variances in height accoring to the pressure. I did not ask them to do the diameter, but it will also change with pressure.

    We also distribute some less expensive, and lighter weight tanks, I can guess that these may have an even wider variance from 0 PSI to 80 PSI.

    In regards to why millions of pieces of equipment havent sprung leaks... most softeners that are installed have some flexibility in the plumbing, the pipe connectors, etc.

    I prefer hard plumbing softeners for aesthetic reasons, but flexible connectors are the correct way to install them.

    Check out this link to Falcon stainless, they basically repeat what I say regarding warranty on water softeners and flexible connectors.

    http://www.falconstainless.com/mega-...ater_Flex.html
    Last edited by Terry; 03-29-2012 at 12:21 PM.

Similar Threads

  1. Softener ID
    By Pclark in forum Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and reviews
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-23-2011, 05:59 PM
  2. Softener Outside
    By Oros95 in forum Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and reviews
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-11-2010, 03:06 PM
  3. Can you ID this softener?
    By brewrevm in forum Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-24-2009, 11:05 AM
  4. Can you ID this softener?
    By brewrevm in forum Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and reviews
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-23-2009, 11:59 AM
  5. Can you ID this softener?
    By brewrevm in forum Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-23-2009, 11:59 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •