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Thread: Do I need a softener?

  1. #46
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    Your welcome. For hardness levels that you should put up with... it is purely a personal preference. There are many studies that show the benefits of soft water for efficiencies of appliances, energy savings, lower chemical and soap consumtion, etc...

    In my opinon, a tankless water heater should have softened water if the hardness exceed a few grains, even if you only feed the tankless heater and not the whole house. Soft water is a luxury item to many people. Those who are not used to it will find it unusual when they use it for the first time. This will pass in a short amount of time as your brain is retrained to a "new normal". For those who have hard water, the soft water will have a "slimy" feel for a while and it seems like soap will not rinse off. Those who have soft water will notice when their softener runs out of salt or malfunctions by the "sticky water" and the soap no longer works.

    Other benefits are reduced skin problems for many people, eaiser personal grooming (women washing their hair, men shaving). My wife knows when the water gets above 1 gpg because she is unable to wash her hair without great difficulty. One of my daughters gets a mild case of eczema anytime I take the softener offline for testing of service. The eczema goes away within days of putting the unit back online.

    Some people hate soft water and are extremely happy with whole house carbon filtration.

    It is a tough call. I personally have multiple whole house systems/medias on my house, but I also test and prototype equipment constantly so I have a good reason to have equipment that would be considered completely overkill for most applications. The one item I would have if I had to chose would be the traditional water softener.

  2. #47
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I think he has a tankless boiler coil which are very susceptible to liming from hard water conditions because the coil itself sits in a bath of constantly hot water. IMO, if slight hardness is acceptable at the fauctes etc, the best thing to do would be to get rid of the tankless coil and go with a boiler indirect which will handle hard'ish water conditions far better and.......save enough money on fuel to pay for itself in under 5 years and...................give limitless, balanced temperature hot water.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  3. #48
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Sorry, that was supposed to grass induced and rude behavior.
    Well at any rate you should put down the fatty for awhile then, pot smoke is bad for the lungs and the libido.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  4. #49
    DIY Senior Member F6Hawk's Avatar
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    Well, skin problems and hair-washing issues certainly abound in a house with two women with long hair. Those two reasons alone (or should I say, my peace of mind frmo not having to listen about their "issues" might make it worth it, lol. Other than a little hardness (which, from my reading, is actually better for us in consumption), the water tastes/smells great. So with y'alls help, I think I will design/install a system that will handle my house.

    So far, I am hearing a 32K resin tank, and a 7000SXT valve being recommended. I believe someone said the 7000 is a 1.25" valve, can I just reduce it down to 3/4"?

    Are the calculations on this page accurate, as far as system sizing goes? http://www.apswater.com/water_soften...0&perperson=80 Should I use 80, or 60 gals per person? That site recommends 32K, but is it truly big enough? If I want to have my system working around 6 lbs/cu ft, would a 48K be more appropriate? I'd much rather spend the few extra $$$ and get it right the first time.

    Thanks for all the assistance!

  5. #50
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    Well, skin problems and hair-washing issues certainly abound in a house with two women with long hair. Those two reasons alone (or should I say, my peace of mind frmo not having to listen about their "issues" might make it worth it, lol. Other than a little hardness (which, from my reading, is actually better for us in consumption), the water tastes/smells great. So with y'alls help, I think I will design/install a system that will handle my house.

    So far, I am hearing a 32K resin tank, and a 7000SXT valve being recommended. I believe someone said the 7000 is a 1.25" valve, can I just reduce it down to 3/4"?

    Are the calculations on this page accurate, as far as system sizing goes? http://www.apswater.com/water_soften...0&perperson=80 Should I use 80, or 60 gals per person? That site recommends 32K, but is it truly big enough? If I want to have my system working around 6 lbs/cu ft, would a 48K be more appropriate? I'd much rather spend the few extra $$$ and get it right the first time.

    Thanks for all the assistance!
    OK, here's the poop on the 7000SXT valve body. You can pipe it either 3/4", 1" or 1-1/4" Note the flow capacity which is up to 35 gpm which is way beyond most residential use. At the top of the page is the installation manual and the specifications also. 32K is good but you may want to go 48K due if you have extremely cold water and it will regenerate less often. I use 60 gallons per person though a lot of web dealer sites say 70 or 75 however, most folks have backed off on their water use and of course, low flow shower heads and faucets have contributed to that figure as well. The actual difference between going with 60 or 70 though is pretty negligible in the long run. If you don't want the extra expense of the 7000SXT the 5600 will service you quite well also and is usually a bit less money. Me though, I like the 7000 series. It is an easy valve to service and a simple head to program. Best of luck to you and my apologies for the mess above.

    BTW I checked out your link there. Nice site and you can plug anything in for numbers you want and it makes the correct adjustment. It's a whole lot easier than getting out the calculator ain't it?

    http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com...ck+7000SXT.htm
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 03-25-2012 at 11:34 AM.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  6. #51
    DIY Senior Member mialynette2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    Well, skin problems and hair-washing issues certainly abound in a house with two women with long hair. Those two reasons alone (or should I say, my peace of mind frmo not having to listen about their "issues" might make it worth it, lol. Other than a little hardness (which, from my reading, is actually better for us in consumption), the water tastes/smells great. So with y'alls help, I think I will design/install a system that will handle my house.

    So far, I am hearing a 32K resin tank, and a 7000SXT valve being recommended. I believe someone said the 7000 is a 1.25" valve, can I just reduce it down to 3/4"?

    Are the calculations on this page accurate, as far as system sizing goes? http://www.apswater.com/water_soften...0&perperson=80 Should I use 80, or 60 gals per person? That site recommends 32K, but is it truly big enough? If I want to have my system working around 6 lbs/cu ft, would a 48K be more appropriate? I'd much rather spend the few extra $$$ and get it right the first time.

    Thanks for all the assistance!
    What you need to consider is compensated hardness. With every part of iron, you will need to add hardness. Some people say 3 GPG for every parts of iron and others use 5 GPG. I use 3. Also the higher the hardness, the compensated hardnesss increases. This is to compensate for hardness ions that are not measured with a standard test kit. Hardness of 1-20, times the hardness by 1.1 to get the compensated hardness. 21-40, times by 1.2. Once you know what the compensated hardness is, times it by 60 (usage per day) times number of people and times by 7 days. This should be the size system you should get. Be carefull when dealing with a lot of iron. The resin should be regenerated more often with a lot of iron. I have never dealt with the Fleck 7000 valve, but the Clack is a very user friendly valve.
    Last edited by mialynette2003; 03-25-2012 at 11:39 AM.

  7. #52
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F6Hawk View Post
    Well, skin problems and hair-washing issues certainly abound in a house with two women with long hair. Those two reasons alone (or should I say, my peace of mind frmo not having to listen about their "issues" might make it worth it, lol. Other than a little hardness (which, from my reading, is actually better for us in consumption), the water tastes/smells great. So with y'alls help, I think I will design/install a system that will handle my house.

    So far, I am hearing a 32K resin tank, and a 7000SXT valve being recommended. I believe someone said the 7000 is a 1.25" valve, can I just reduce it down to 3/4"?

    Are the calculations on this page accurate, as far as system sizing goes? http://www.apswater.com/water_soften...0&perperson=80 Should I use 80, or 60 gals per person? That site recommends 32K, but is it truly big enough? If I want to have my system working around 6 lbs/cu ft, would a 48K be more appropriate? I'd much rather spend the few extra $$$ and get it right the first time.

    Thanks for all the assistance!
    A 48k unit or 1.5 cubic foot would be better in the long run.
    Setting the system up for 9lbs and 31,000 grain capacity.
    The gallons per person per day.. there is a good one, some will say 75 , I start with 60gallons per person per day as a starting point, every house hold usage is different.
    1" is standard for most Homes today, while 3/4 was years ago.

  8. #53
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    I concur on the 1.5 cubic foot system set to 9 pounds of salt. The 7000SXT can be order with either plastic 3/4" threaded connectors, or 3/4" sweat connectors to meet your needs. The valve is extremely simple to service, but rarely needs to be touched. The valve has bee n out for over a deaced, and I still rarely sell any parts for it.

    I use an average of 45 gallons of water per person per day. What do you guys use, (those who currently live in a house). I have automated touchfree faucets in the resatrooms, ultra low flush toilets, my wife and I shower together every day to save water, ultra high efficiency laundry and dishwasher, my three daughters take a bath or shower daily. So our water usage is fairly normal, other than a highly modernized, efficient water use devices, so the old standard of 75 gallons per person is very high.

  9. #54
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I'm still using 60 gpd. Mostly because of a bit of a fudge factor. Remember when we were at 80+. Still, teenage girls can trash your best calculations with those hour long showers.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  10. #55
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Was told once by some who did septic systems, for every single teenager, double the people count or 2 people for the price of one.

  11. #56
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    He's probably about right.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  12. #57
    Water systems designer, R&D ditttohead's Avatar
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    lol, we do yell at our 14 year old when she gets in the shower. The 3 and 6 year olds typically take a bath and we set the tankless water heater to 20 gallons fill cycles then it shuts off the bath. Maybe I should set my oldest daughters shower to 10 gallons,

  13. #58
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I shut off the water pump once in awhile just to make the point LOL
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  14. #59
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Wait til the girl takes a shower before school and then shortly after getting home from school...

    Setting the limit at 10gallons would work til one forgets to change it back and the wife takes the shower with only 10, or the daughter inlists your wifes help in taking you to task for setting a low setting..

    I have learned over the past ,, Never upset the Ladies of the house... doing so means that life will not be good for some time.

  15. #60
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer View Post
    I shut off the water pump once in awhile just to make the point LOL
    And you have lived to tell the tail?

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