Toto Drake, Ultramax or Cadet 3 one piece, help??

My considerations:
(1) Toto Drake (CST744EL)
(2) Toto Ultramax (MS854114SL) Made in USA
(3) American Standard Cadet 3 FloWise ELONGATED RIGHT HEIGHT ONE-PIECE TOILET WITH SEAT(2403.128) Made in Mexico

I like what is said about the Toto Drake in these forums, but I do not particularly like the 2 piece design as well as the one piece toilets. If I consider the Toto Ultramax (the particular model above) So I hate spending money without some assurances as to what I would be getting, especially in view of it’s considerably higher price than the other two options.

This then leaves the American Standard product. As far as the as the Cadet 3 one-piece goes, great score of 1000, but is it as good as their 2 piece designs? Anyone tried any of these one piece Cadet 3’s?

Absolute Requirements: ADA height, elongated bowl, MaP score of 700 or better. Highly desired: one piece design.

So what are my options? Any thoughts appreciated.

The elongated Ultramax gets a score of 700 grams.
The taller ADA Ultramax should work even better.
All of the taller bowls work better. It's a gravity thing.

Quality control on Toto is the best.
Parts are gettable almost anywhere.
The Ultramax comes with a nice slow closing seat. Of all the toilets I sell, it's one of the customer favorites.

I also sell the Cadet line. If you get one of these, inspect before bringing home. The factory guys don't like doing that.
Flappers tend to fail quickly, Korky makes a better aftermarket fix for those.

John Koeller of Map and myself, agree that anything over 500 on the MaP works fine. There are other things that matter,

quality of product
bowl wash
how long parts hold up
fit and finish

How does the Cadet 3 flowise (not the Toto) perform?

I know the experts here love Toto, but how about an unbiased response from those who have actually installed/witnessed the new design and performance that American Standard is advertising in their new Cadet 3 flowise system.

With a MaP of 1000 (300 more than Toto's HET), does it really flush better meaning handle more load?

Is there any back splash or poor bowl wash with this particular toilet?

Has anyone installed this particular toilet and received negative feedback from the customer as it aged?

These are the questions I have spend way too many hours on the internet trying to determine. So how about it guys/gals what's the real deal this toilet?

A lot of the plumbers here have installed and used the Cadet 3.
We sell them and have installed them. Are you thinking we plumbers haven't seen them?

You can read comments here

I'm a plumber and I stopped installing Am. Std. toilets when I got tired of doing the same job twice without pay the second time...

I've seen all I need to see!

Don't mean to offend anyone

Thanks for the link I did not see that thread before. I'll post my question there.

You didn't offend me.
Poor quality offends me...
Can you tell I consider Am. Std to be of poor quality?

Tom there is a little more to selecting a toilet than the MaP Test.

John Koeller head of one of the 2 consulting firms that do the MaP testing has a Toto Ultra Max in his bathroom at home...

All the toilets that he could have brought into his home and installed and he picked a Toto Ultramax with a MaP Rating of 700 GmPF...

Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it?


All of which brings us to: What kind of toilet should you buy? It depends, says Koeller, whose back yard is crammed with new models for testing, but whose bathroom sports a Toto Ultra Max (MaP score: 700 grams!).

Champion-4 ADA, EL model has the best flush and best bowl wash out of gravity toilets. Yes, champion used a 3-inch flush valve in the past and had problems, but totally redesigned it with a "new" 4-inch flush valve. I know Terry is partial to the Toto Drake (900 Map Test). But we can agree to disagree... Even Terry's know that champion 4, ADA, EL toilets have a much better bowl wash then the Toto Drake. LOL
I have installed many toilets and the Toto Drake does not have as much force, or as much bowl wash and can not compete with a 2 3/8 inch trap on a Champion 4 ADA, EL toilet. The best gravity toilet out on the market for(price/performance) is the Champion 4 EL ADA model with a 4-inch flush valve and (1000 Map test).


Have a great day!!
I proud champion 4 toilet owner!!!

I"ve installed a Champion for use.
I prefer the Toto Drake for many reasons.

We do disagree.
And with poor quality control on American Standard producst, you won't see many plumbers that will install them.
When I go to the supply house, the plumbers laugh when you even mention the name American Standard.
Plumbers have been forced to do extra work on American Standard, and doing extra work for free is not what plumbers like doing.
Some plumbers just keep charging for the extra trips.

Why "plumbers" like Toto?
Not having to do things twice, Priceless!

Terry said:

Why "plumbers" like Toto?
Not having to do things twice, Priceless!

Click to expand...

My sentiments exactly!

Champion-4 ADA, EL model has the best flush and best bowl wash out of gravity toilets.

Click to expand...

Oh boy that is one model they should have discontinued...
All the effort they put into promoting the Champion line...
What a waste...
Champion 1 was the one that put me over the top...

All the people they ripped off with junk Champion 1's, 2's, & 3's....
I'm surprised they found anybody that would buy the 4's at all...

In my book it take 10 attaboys to make up for 1 aw$h!t...
I guess others may have a shorter memory...

All I know is if someone says "Jeb Bush for President 2012"

Champion-4 toilet - Proud owner, 3- years and still no problems!

Redwood said:

My sentiments exactly!



Oh boy that is one model they should have discontinued...
All the effort they put into promoting the Champion line...
What a waste...
Champion 1 was the one that put me over the top...

All the people they ripped off with junk Champion 1's, 2's, & 3's....
I'm surprised they found anybody that would buy the 4's at all...

In my book it take 10 attaboys to make up for 1 aw$h!t...
I guess others may have a shorter memory...

All I know is if someone says "Jeb Bush for President 2012"

Click to expand...

Well, my champion-4 toilets have performed flawlessly
for over 3-years!!! And I notice Toto flushing performance keep decreasing each year with there newer models. So please explain why it is better for toto to keeping manufacturing a toilet with a weaker flush rate with there newer models??? That does not improve a a product at all!!! Even the cadet-3 flushs better (1000 MAP score), then
a toto drake (800 MAP score) in flush rate perfomance! Many toto fans always tell me , "Oh just wait an American standard will not last the parts go bad"...
Well my mother owns 3ea cadet-3 toilets for over 4-years. And there has not been any issues with the Cadet-3 toilets or bad parts to replace!!!

Let's just stick to the facts on price, durablity and performance:
Cadet-3 1.28 gallon toilet cost between 159.00 to 180.00 at big box stores., 1000 MAP SCORE!
Toto drake II, 1.28 gallon toilet cost 250.00 or more! 800 MAP SCORE!
Consumers want a quality toilet with outstanding perfomance! And the Cadet-3 toilet offers this to customers!

So what parts "usually" wears out on a toilet??? A flapper which only cost about $3.00 to $5.00
I will save 90.00 plus dollars and buy a cadet-3, 1.28 gallon toilet which beat out the toto drake II, 1.28 gallon toilet.
All flappers will degrade in time, so will toto flappers!!!

from our view point, it's the amount of returns a plumber gets.
TOTO has the best reputation with professional plumbers.
You bought four toilets of one brand, and haven't tried the other brands. We sell and install all brands. So of course, when you are working with "all" brands, you would have a different perspective.

I'm glad your small sample without a "control" has worked out for you.

Also, MaP scores of 500 grams are plenty. I don't really care if they are higher then that.
I'm looking at fit, finish, rinse and flush combined, looking at splash back, parts being available, and the amount of returns we get.

A pro isn't going to go out of his way returning product without pay. Time is money.
If a homeowner wants to save a buck, and wants to make that gamble, then go for it.
Your time isn't worth much anyway. Mine is.

Unglazed Toto toilet trap

Regarding the Toto info sheet for the Ultramax, MS854114SG:


It states that the trapway is "fully glazed". I just recieved one of these and the trap is NOT glazed. Is the spec wrong? Is this a defect?

Should I install this unglazed-trap toilet?

The surface isn't necessarily smooth after glazing, and this is done intentionally. Take something and put it on the smooth surface, when wet, it tends to stick. If there's some roughness to it, the flushing water can get underneath it and peel it away.

Trapway Glazing

Thank you for the reply and logic.

I had thought that I had installed a low flow toilet once that had a slick, shinny trapway about three years ago; it was an Eljer. But maybe I'm wrong about the inside trapway look and feel.

I would describe the inside of the trapway on the Toto I got as being dull (no sheen) and like about 220 grit sandpaper. I guess you could still call it "smooth". But its much like the inside of the tank which I doubt is glazed.

I called Toto but didn't get any good-feeling or conformation one way or the other as to how verify the presence of the glazing.

So, I may never know for sure, so will go ahead and install it and hope I forget about it.

My preference is for a trapway that is a little rough. Things don't stick so easily.
I've sold thousands and thousands of toilets with trapways that are a little rough.