(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Results 1 to 15 of 53

Thread: Ejector Pump Box with Air Admittance Valve (LONG)

Hybrid View

  1. #1

    Default Ejector Pump Box with Air Admittance Valve (LONG)

    Hi all. Newbie here. I just bought a home with a basement utility sink below the sewer line. The original owner rigged up a rube-goldberg contraption, with a pump mounted to the bottom of a sink, and a float switch mounted IN THE SINK. It was disgusting, with a constant 1-2" of standing, dirty water in the sink at any given time. No vent, obviously.

    So, I hired a plumber to come out to fix the problem and he suggested a zoeller pump in the box with a sure-vent. Going to the roof would be a major expense.

    Anyway, the plumber cancelled on me, so I went and bought the supplies myself. First thing I see in the pump manual is that the pump can't be used with an AAV. I searched the forum here and the internet, and the definitive consensus is that a pump in the box won't work with an AAV.

    As an aside, I live in NJ, and in this state, it is impossible to get a master plumber to come to your house. What you get are the retards that work under the master plumbers licence, hence the bad advice. This is a very frustrating situation, and I've already twice had to get the board of master plumbers involved to penalize master plumbers for allowing idiots to screw up my plumbing jobs. The system is broken and this corrupt practice serves nothing more than to enrich unscrupulous master plumbers while depriving the public of having a licenced professional do the job. Hence, why I am here and asking for your help.

    So I have this pump and an AAV, and according to STUDOR, it is indeed possible to use an ejector pump with an AAV. The spec sheets for their valves state: THE VALVE MAY BE INSTALLED ON SEWER EJECTORS, IF INSTALLED ACCORDING TO ENGINEER DESIGN..

    Take a look at this diagram on page 14 of the Studor design manual:

    http://www.studor.com/DesignCriteria.pdf

    They basically have the vent coming out of the box, and then a loop back from the waste discharge to the vent again. In any case, I figured I can do no worse than what the so-called "plumber" would have given me, and certainly better than what I originally had. So, I pulled the old sink and pump out, installed a new sink/faucet and rigged up the new pump as per the design diagram. Guess what? It works. I don't know how it works, or how long it's going to work, but the pump functions. I did at least a dozen full sink-loads of water, two laundry cycles, and numerous on-off cycles of water going down the drain. On the shorter cycles, the waste pipe shutters after the pump shuts off, but I think this is the water flowing back to my check valve, which is mounted about 3ft up the vertical pipe.

    BTW: I am using a standard mechanical vent temporarily until I can find the proper studor valve. The sink drains very fast. I don't hear the mechnical vent, but after a big laundry load, I get some gurgling and the valve makes a little "hiss" for about 3 seconds after the pump shuts off. I assume this is how the box is equalizing the pressure. I would appreciate it if someone can explain the studor diagram to me on how this thing works and comment on why studor believes an AAV can work with an ejector pump, while the general consensus is against this practice. Thanks to all for reading.

    -A

  2. #2
    Master Plumber nhmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    S. Maine
    Posts
    2,039

    Default

    It's all going to depend on whatever your local inspector says about it.

  3. #3
    DIY Senior Member Master Brian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    368

    Default

    I'd love to know the answer to this as well. The vent is all I have to run to get my system up and going and I was planning on running it up 2 floors and out the roof, which is going to be somewhat tougher than I originally thought.

    I'm of course not a plumber, but the only problem I really see with this setup is that there is nothing to prevent a sewage backup from coming back up this vent pipe and into your ejector pump. On the discharge section of pipe, there is a check valve to stop any sewage from the main line from entering the ejector pit, on the vent there isn't. I tried finding reason's as well as to why I couldn't tie my ejector vent into one of the "normal" house vents and that is what I kept coming back to.

    I had a plumber tell me that it was ok to tie it into a vent, which is why I plumbed the rest myself. I thought he isn't giving me any advice I with my limited knowledge couldn't figure out, in fact, I read his advice was wrong, so why should I pay him. I don't doubt there are some great plumbers out there that know their trade inside and out, but I don't seem to find them....until I look here for advice!!!

    One last thought....if the main sewer line backed up and was not able to flow into the sewage ejector pit, then the flow of backup is likely going to be a tub or toilet above the main drain and a likely overflow into finished living quarters. Being as the ejector pit is located in the basement, if it backs up, it would backup into the basement. In my case, the lowest point would be a backup into where I plan to install a floor drain. My design is that if the floor drain overflows and any backups would/should overflow into my sump pit where it would be directed outside. With this logic, I can't decide if it would be better or not to tie the vent to the main sewer! For health reasons, I know they would say you don't want raw sewage pumped outside and I get that. I also know code would frown on that, but I'd rather it go outside than into my living space. Afterall, no more than should ever backup would not cause any long lasting health concerns if any, unless it was common practice and Everyone was doing it.

  4. #4
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    7,463

    Default

    The answer plain and simple is the pump is an air tight container and in order for any liquid to enter the air needs to leave or it will become airbound and liquid will not enter. An AAV, Shure vent, Studor vent or whatever other name for one you manage to come up with allows only a one way flow with air entering. It will not work properly!

    Even if you manage to find someone that says it's okay it's not and will not work properly!

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
    The answer plain and simple is the pump is an air tight container and in order for any liquid to enter the air needs to leave or it will become airbound and liquid will not enter. An AAV, Shure vent, Studor vent or whatever other name for one you manage to come up with allows only a one way flow with air entering. It will not work properly!

    Even if you manage to find someone that says it's okay it's not and will not work properly!
    Firstly, we are not talking about a "someone" giving me an "okay". The engineers at Studor have concluded that their valve will allow a sealed sewage ejector pump box to work if you follow their design criteria. I am not going to entertain suggestions that Studor is printing lies and disinformation. They are a highly respected manufacturer that very much depends on their engineering team to gain code approvals.. What I am looking for is an explanation of how this design actually works, not whether or not it will work. Studor has obviously decided that it will work, or they wouldn't be printing spec sheets that explicitly state these valves can be used for sewage ejector pumps. Furthermore, I have implemented their design and the box has yet to become air-locked. If the pump should become air-locked, believe me, I will report it here!

  6. #6
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    7,463

    Default

    Okay, hook it up however you want and enjoy all the smells and weird drainage that may or may not occur!

    Studor is at best tin house on wheels plumbing, not highly respected!

    My plumbing works at my house and I could care less about yours!

    The advice has ended!
    Last edited by Redwood; 01-05-2009 at 11:43 AM.

  7. #7

    Default

    Thanks for you input. Now for those of you that care to examine new designs before arrogantly dismissing any theory that you do not agree with, have a look at their design manual on page 14, you will see the ejector box vents to the studor AND back into the horizontal waste pipe after a specified distance. Presumably, the "exhaust" aspect of the box is wet-vented, while "intake" is supplied by the one-way valve. Thoughts?

  8. #8

    Default

    In my locality, no inspection is required for replacement of existing plumbing. Anyway, the original rube-goldberg sink pump would never pass code, so why should I call an inspector to look at something that's been wrong for 40 years? In this case, my new system can't be any worse then what I had.

    Again, I would have gladly paid a professional plumber up to $1500 to do this job, but unfortunately, no master plumbers work in new jersey. Why work when you can send a high-school dropout to do the job for you and charge the customer hundreds of $$'s an hour? The master plumber doesn't even have to come to the site to inspect the work, and being that no permits are required for replacement in NJ, the high-school dropout is also your final inspector. The system here is beyond broken. Sorry for the rant..

    As far as the check-valve business, yes, if there was a sewer backup, it would wind up coming out of the lowest drain in my house, which would be through the pump vent pipe, and back up into my utility sink drain. But this is what would happen in any system with a sewage backup. The check valve is not going to save you, the sewage would still rise to your lowest drain. Anyway, that is what homeowners insurance is for...

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ak199 View Post
    Hi all. Newbie here. I just bought a home with a basement utility sink below the sewer line. The original owner rigged up a rube-goldberg contraption, with a pump mounted to the bottom of a sink, and a float switch mounted IN THE SINK. It was disgusting, with a constant 1-2" of standing, dirty water in the sink at any given time. No vent, obviously.

    So, I hired a plumber to come out to fix the problem and he suggested a zoeller pump in the box with a sure-vent. Going to the roof would be a major expense.

    Anyway, the plumber cancelled on me, so I went and bought the supplies myself. First thing I see in the pump manual is that the pump can't be used with an AAV. I searched the forum here and the internet, and the definitive consensus is that a pump in the box won't work with an AAV.


    -A


    How about using one of these. It connects direct to the sink drain tailpiece. It does not need a trap. It will not work with an AAV, but no vent connection is required to main vent stack anyhow. Discharge connects to main stack via a backflow prevention device.


    http://www.accentshopping.com/produc...t_/P_ID/150049

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •