Well Water Pressure Help

[Tnyurt]

I have a well that I am using to feed 2 houses. I do not know GPM, well Hp, or depth. It goes into a 20 gallon well-x-troll pressure tank with a 40-60 pressure switch. The first house is 100 feet away. It has 5 bathrooms, 2 water heaters and 2 kitchens but water pressure is always good. I have 2 hydrants close by that also have great pressure. The issue is the other barn/house. I am in the process of converting it into a living space. It is about 200 vertical feet and 500 running feet away. There is a hydrant there now but the pressure varies greatly. From a good flow to not much at all. If you try to use your finger on the end of the hose to spray it, water will almost stop flowing. I do have a psi tester coming tomorrow. I would like a constant flow to the new house. Thought about a bigger pressure tank to get more draw down, maybe a holding tank and pressure pump, a pressure tank in the new house, pressure booster system?? I can't seem to get a answer so I am leaving it up to others experiences here.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Reach4]

200 extra feet of elevation would lose 86.8 PSI pressure. Since you are getting some water when the pressure at the pressure switch is 60 PSI, that means there is not really 200 feet of extra rise. It does mean that you need more pressure to climb the hill. There is probably more than one way to do that, but a booster pump would be one of them.

A 20 gallon pressure tank is really small, unless you have a CSV. You probably want to find out some of the stuff that you said you don't know to help figure out a good system.

Maybe going to a 60-80 PSI system, with a corresponding increase in the pressure tank precharge could improve things from what they are now, but longer term you will want something better figured out. I suggest you get another opinion or two before proceeding.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Tnyurt]

I will get my contractor to est elevation change tomorrow and also check psi high & low. No CSV. How could I get an accurate elevation measurement?

Also I forgot to mention that if a open the hydrant up top while having one open on the lower elevation I have great pressure. I am sure pump was staying on constantly.

 

[Reach4]

You can measure the pressure difference when the pump is not running. From that you can compute the altitude difference at 0.434 PSI/ft.

In your second sentence, where is the great pressure at?

I suggest you sketch out a rough map of the well and pipes. Post it.

 

[Tnyurt]

Pressure great at both elevations with 2 hydrants open.
I will post tomorrow night with as much info as I can get.
Thanks

 

[Valveman]

Pressure great at both elevations with 2 hydrants open.
I will post tomorrow night with as much info as I can get.
Thanks

I don't see how that is possible. Like Reach said 200' requires 86 PSI extra. If you find out what pump is in the well you maybe able to just up the pressure switch as much as needed like 100/120, which should still only get you about 20/40 at the upper elevation.

At 100/120 a 20 gallon pressure tank only holds 2.97 gallons of water. So you really need a CSV or a much, much larger tank.

Of course then you will need a pressure reducing valve like the PRV1A at the lower house to lower the pressure from 100/120 to 50 PSI like the house needs.

 

[Tnyurt]

So I checked elevation today with iphone app. It is 65 feet rise. Boy my guess was wrong! It is 500 running feet away. I will post pressure tonight.

 

[Valveman]

So I checked elevation today with iphone app. It is 65 feet rise. Boy my guess was wrong! It is 500 running feet away. I will post pressure tonight.

65' is 28 PSI. So you need to run the well pump pressure switch at about 70/90 to have 40/60 at the upper house. A Pressure reducing valve at the lower house set at about 50 PSI would be good. Our PRV1A pressure reducing valve has a full flow thermal bypass, which lets water go backwards. So you wouldn't need a thermal expansion tank after the PRV.

A 20 gallon tank at 70/90 only holds about 4 gallons of water. So still gonna need a CSV or a much larger tank.

 

[Tnyurt]

How does a CSV work? Would I still need a bigger tank if I went the CSV way? Which way is cheaper?

 

[Craigpump]

You can use a smaller tank with a CSV.

Cheaper than what? A VFD? Oh yeah much cheaper.... Last time I put in a "Drive", the box was close to $900.00 plus labor, and most guys don't have them on their truck, so you have to wait until the supply house opens.

Bummer on Christmas morning.....

 

[Valveman]

How does a CSV work? Would I still need a bigger tank if I went the CSV way? Which way is cheaper?

With a 70/90 pressure switch you would set the CSV for 80 PSI. When you turn on a 3 GPM shower the 4 gallons in the pressure tank will be used in 1 minute 20 seconds as the pressure drops from 90 to 70 PSI. At 70 the pressure switch starts the pump. The pump is filled to 80 PSI at which time the CSV starts working to maintain 80 PSI for as long as the shower is running. When the shower is turned off the CSV closes down to 1 GPM, which is as low as it can close. This 1 GPM coming through the CSV now has no place left to go except the pressure tank. The pressure tank is topped off with 2 gallons in about 2 more minutes as the pressure climbs from 80 to 90 PSI, which shuts off the pump. So with the tank you have a CSV1A at about 200 bucks would be all you need.

Assuming you have a 10 GPM pump, without a CSV the 4 gallons in the tank would cause the pump to run for only 24 seconds and be off for 80 seconds while the shower is running. You would need at least a 60 gallon size tank to reduce the cycling on/off to a minimum acceptable level. With 2 houses I would want at least twice that large of a tank (120 gallon).

The CSV works with small tanks because it keeps the pump running for as long as you are using water. This eliminates the cycling on/off that destroys pumps, tanks, and every part of a pump system.

You would put the CSV1A before the pressure tank and before the line tees off to the first house. Then you can use a PRV1A on the line going to the lower house to maintain 50 PSI.

You can play with this graphic to see how it works.
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/simple/home.php

 

[Valveman]

You can use a smaller tank with a CSV.
Cheaper than what? A VFD? Oh yeah much cheaper.... Last time I put in a "Drive", the box was close to $900.00 plus labor, and most guys don't have them on their truck, so you have to wait until the supply house opens.
Bummer on Christmas morning.....

If you know where to get a VFD (driveswarehouse.com) they have been available for $131 for a long time now. The ones you get from the pump suppliers are expensive because they are brand specific, and so the dealer can make some money on them.

The newest thing coming out at the NGWA show this year is $200 drives. Now the dealer can’t make any money on them and he still has to put up with all the warranties and problems. Gonna make my job a whole lot easier.

 

[Craigpump]

Driveswarehouse.com, thanks for the hot tip, but when your customer is out of water, they aren't going to wait 2-3 days.

I'd rather use a dumb pump and a pressure switch....

 

[Tnyurt]

I am not sure where the T is at making adding the pressure reducer problematic. One line leaves the well house and splits off into 2 lines to the lower house, 3 hydrants on the lower elevation and the one hydrant at the barn. I hate to dig and guess where it tees off. I could put in 2 reducers one on each line into the lower house. Can the reducer value be underground?

 

[Valveman]

The Cycle Stop Valve will need to be installed before the lines tee off to the respected houses. It can be installed before the tee or right at the well head.

The pressure reducing valve to the lower house can actually be installed inside the lower house where the water line comes in.