Well - air in line after freezing

[hottubbrad]

Our line from our well to the house (well with submersible pump at 120 feet deep) froze when we were away for a month in the winter. Unfortunately, we are on bedrock and the pipe is only 3 feet deep.

I drove hot water down the 1" line using a length of 1/2" Pex. I fed the 1/2" little by little as the frozen area thawed. After 8 hours of fun, the frozen area was thawed and the water was back on.

Once spring came, we began noticing air from our faucets. You can also hear air bubbling in the water softener and pressure tank a little bit. We get small, occasional burps from some of the house faucets. We get large burps from the outside faucet that does not go through the softener. We also have 2 stage filtration with 10 micron pleated and 1 micron carbon block (big blue filters). I have not noticed any extra sediment on the filters.

My question is: Could a cracked poly pipe or fitting cause that much air to come into the system. I understand with a self priming pump it could, but what about a submersible? Where else can I look for the issue?

I am going to dig it up anyway to add heat trace but I would love to narrow it down somewhat ...

Thanks for your help.

 

[Reach4]

Once spring came, we began noticing air from our faucets. You can also hear air bubbling in the water softener and pressure tank a little bit. We get small, occasional burps from some of the house faucets. We get large burps from the outside faucet that does not go through the softener. We also have 2 stage filtration with 10 micron pleated and 1 micron carbon block (big blue filters). I have not noticed any extra sediment on the filters.

My question is: Could a cracked poly pipe or fitting cause that much air to come into the system. I understand with a self priming pump it could, but what about a submersible? Where else can I look for the issue?

Only if you have an above-ground check valve. There should be no check valve above the water in the well. If you don't know if you have a check valve above ground, show us a photo that includes the input to the pressure tank and the incoming pipe.

There is a time when a check valve and a snifter valve is used for good reason. That, with the help of a drain-back valve in the drop pipe, allows the water to drain back into the well before it freezes. However with such a system, you need a way to remove the air. That is classically done by using a "conventional" (no diaphragm) tank, and an AVC (air volume control) to release the excess air.

With no above-ground check valve, the symptom of a leak would be cycling when you are not using water.

Softeners can introduce air. That air would not be in the pressure tank, however.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[hottubbrad]

I definitely do have a check valve at the pressure tank (photo attached). Can you please explain how this affects the air introduction into the system? I think there is also a built in check valve at the top of the submersible pump. I likely added the check valve on top for redundancy. It worked to 13 years so far.

If there was a cracked hose, the check valve at the top is preventing the water from leaking back to the crack from the pressure tank.

I also changed the brine valve to be sure it was not that.

My thought was that there was a cracked line and the water was partially draining into the ground when the pump was off. It would have to be a decent crack though and not just a hairline. Then, when the pressure switch demands more water, the pump pushes the air in the line through.

What do you think or am I crazy.....?

 

[Bannerman]

The only check valve should be located directly at or within the submersible pump. Removing the topside check valve will quickly show if there is a fracture in the drop pipe to the well pump. If there is a fracture, it can allow air into the drop pipe while water leaks out.

A defective softener brine valve is not the usual cause for air entry. At the bottom of the softener's brine tank will most likely be an air-check valve that should fully close once there is little brine quantity remaining during Brine Draw. If that air-check cannot fully close often due to a piece of debris, then air can be drawn into the resin tank during the Brine Draw/Slow Rinse phase of regeneration.

Since air is being eliminated from your exterior hose bib which supplies unconditioned water, the source of the air should not be from the softener.

 

[hottubbrad]

Yes thanks the exterior hose bib air does rule out the softener....thanks.

Have you ever heard of a way to pressure test the line to the pitless?

 

[Reach4]

I definitely do have a check valve at the pressure tank (photo attached). Can you please explain how this affects the air introduction into the system?

If there are two small leaks, air can get sucked in.

If there is a single leak 35 ft down, air can get sucked in, because there will be a vacuum.

At this point, a check valve hides the leak(s) except for the air. Would removing the check valve, or disabling by removing its innards, help? Maybe, but if only the leak is small. What would happen is that the water around the leak would be under pressure. Water can leak out, but a tiny hole passes air a lot better than it passes water. A bigger hole could cause major cycling.

 

[Bannerman]

pressure test the line to the pitless?

Easy. Remove the topside check valve so the entire line back to the check valve at the pump will be pressurized by the pressure tank. If the system pressure drops while no water is being consumed, this will then confirm either a fracture in the pipe between the pressure tank and pump or, the check valve in the pump is not fully closing.

To install a 2nd check valve for redundancy, it should be located directly at the output from the pump.

 

[hottubbrad]

Thanks for all of the helpful advice.

What is the theory on why to only keep a check valve in the hole?

 

[Bannerman]

What is the theory on why to only keep a check valve in the hole?

There will be little point in rewriting what has been discussed in this forum many times. One example is post #33 in this thread.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/did-my-well-pump-motor-fail.93700/page-2#post-675750

Post #6: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/diy-700ft-pump-replacement-tips.92866/#post-669859

Post #22: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/water-hammer-issue.92584/page-2#post-667571

 

[hottubbrad]

That's great ... thank you so much!