Mark Alan
Member
Sorry for the long post.
I found this thread and it is my basic situation. The only difference is that I have a 2 inch water line going up the hill, and I don't have a pool.
"I've recently determined that I need to basically replace my entire water system due to a busted bladder tank and worn out leaky jet pump. I've replaced these components before but I just basically replaced them with exactly what was there when I bought my house. Before I replace the same system again, I would like to explore other options that may be better.
I have city water but I live on a hill almost at the same height as the main water tank. To make a bad issue worse, I am also near the end of the water line system. My water meter is at the bottom of my hill. I estimate that I have about 800 ln ft of 1" water line with a vertical elevation of about 100-150 ft. My current system consists of a 1/2 hp WaterAce RTS5 jet pump that is connected to 115V line (I can supply a 230V line); 30-60 pressure switch w/ low pressure cut off; 86gallon Well-Xtrol WW86 bladder pressure tank. I also have a 15min timer switch that bypasses the pressure switch. Pump is located under the house in crawlspace and the tank and pressure switch/timer are located in a utility closet in a bathroom. My house has two full bathrooms, Kitchen sink, Water line to fridge, Dishwasher, Clothes washer, two outdoor spigots, and I have a pool. I don't normally use a sprinkler system but I might if I had a water system that could keep up.
Last week I had a plumbing company out to take a look at my system. They gave me an estimate of almost $2400 to basically replace my system with the same system except to upgrade the pump to a 3/4 hp 230V. I'm not convinced that is the direction that I want to go.
My problems start with the extremely low pressure and volume at the pump. The last time I replaced the pump (apx 5 years ago) I didn't even need to turn off the water at the meter. I was able to stop the water flow (trickle) with my finger over the water line. Thus the need for the well system. The low pressure cut off was installed after the last pump that burned up due to a break in the city main. The timer was installed to override the pressure switch (when I was sure that there was water in the line) to get the system up over the 20lb cut off of the pressure switch. This was very often because the pressure coming through the line was so low that supply couldn't keep up with demand (pretty much anytime the washer was run).
A friend of mine suggested that I bury a 1000gal poly storage tank near my house so that my pump wouldn't have to work so hard and the tank could fill during off-peak hours with a separate pump with float valve. What are some opinions of this setup and how would I need to set it up. I've also read quite a bit about the CSV systems on this forum. I'm interested in learning more about this option but I have concerns about the low volume and pressure coming through my line. Would the CSV be able to keep up with demand? I'd like to get some opinions. I'm not an expert so please use small words. lol!"
You recommended the following.
"You can push a lot of water through 1” pipe, but you can’t suck very much through that small pipe from that distance. So a CSV can help here. With a regular bladder tank and no CSV the pump is trying to draw about 10 GPM any time the pump is running. If you are only using a 3 GPM shower, then the other 7 GPM go into the pressure tank until it reaches shut off pressure and the motor turns off. But the pump is always drawing about 10 GPM when running. Drawing 10 GPM through small pipe and a long distance will make the pump work more like it is drawing from a shallow well than a pressurized line.
This has a few effects. It adds extra head to the work of the pump, so you need a larger pump. I would size the pump as if I were lifting from about 20’ out of a well. However, with too large of a pump you could collapse the incoming pipe flat as a pancake. Pipe can take a lot of pressure but not a lot of vacuum.
The leaking pump could be from cavitations in the water because of low NPSH. Basically little air bubbles implode and cut the pump in half. The bladder in the tank is busted from cycling on and off while the pump is drawing 10 GPM and you are only using 3 GPM. Like bending a wire until it breaks.
Here is where the CSV can help. The CSV will allow you to use a larger pump, say a 1 HP jet pump that can build higher pressure than a ¾ HP. When used with the small 4.5 gallon tank the CSV will make sure the pump will always be drawing exactly the same amount as you are using. So when you are only using a 3 GPM shower the pump is only drawing 3 GPM from the 800’ of 1” pipe. This will greatly help with the NPSH on the pump and allow you to run and stay at higher pressures. I would run the pressure switch at 50/70, (with the right pump), and set the CSV at 60 PSI. This will give you constant pressure while using water that is the same as the highest pressure you see now just as the pump shuts off.
Stopping the pump from cycling will solve a lot of your problems, and make everything last longer as well."
I am looking at the PK1A setup, with the switch set at 50/70 and the CSV set at 60 like you suggested. I can get the Goulds J10S pump, but I was wondering if I needed anything else?
I found this thread and it is my basic situation. The only difference is that I have a 2 inch water line going up the hill, and I don't have a pool.
"I've recently determined that I need to basically replace my entire water system due to a busted bladder tank and worn out leaky jet pump. I've replaced these components before but I just basically replaced them with exactly what was there when I bought my house. Before I replace the same system again, I would like to explore other options that may be better.
I have city water but I live on a hill almost at the same height as the main water tank. To make a bad issue worse, I am also near the end of the water line system. My water meter is at the bottom of my hill. I estimate that I have about 800 ln ft of 1" water line with a vertical elevation of about 100-150 ft. My current system consists of a 1/2 hp WaterAce RTS5 jet pump that is connected to 115V line (I can supply a 230V line); 30-60 pressure switch w/ low pressure cut off; 86gallon Well-Xtrol WW86 bladder pressure tank. I also have a 15min timer switch that bypasses the pressure switch. Pump is located under the house in crawlspace and the tank and pressure switch/timer are located in a utility closet in a bathroom. My house has two full bathrooms, Kitchen sink, Water line to fridge, Dishwasher, Clothes washer, two outdoor spigots, and I have a pool. I don't normally use a sprinkler system but I might if I had a water system that could keep up.
Last week I had a plumbing company out to take a look at my system. They gave me an estimate of almost $2400 to basically replace my system with the same system except to upgrade the pump to a 3/4 hp 230V. I'm not convinced that is the direction that I want to go.
My problems start with the extremely low pressure and volume at the pump. The last time I replaced the pump (apx 5 years ago) I didn't even need to turn off the water at the meter. I was able to stop the water flow (trickle) with my finger over the water line. Thus the need for the well system. The low pressure cut off was installed after the last pump that burned up due to a break in the city main. The timer was installed to override the pressure switch (when I was sure that there was water in the line) to get the system up over the 20lb cut off of the pressure switch. This was very often because the pressure coming through the line was so low that supply couldn't keep up with demand (pretty much anytime the washer was run).
A friend of mine suggested that I bury a 1000gal poly storage tank near my house so that my pump wouldn't have to work so hard and the tank could fill during off-peak hours with a separate pump with float valve. What are some opinions of this setup and how would I need to set it up. I've also read quite a bit about the CSV systems on this forum. I'm interested in learning more about this option but I have concerns about the low volume and pressure coming through my line. Would the CSV be able to keep up with demand? I'd like to get some opinions. I'm not an expert so please use small words. lol!"
You recommended the following.
"You can push a lot of water through 1” pipe, but you can’t suck very much through that small pipe from that distance. So a CSV can help here. With a regular bladder tank and no CSV the pump is trying to draw about 10 GPM any time the pump is running. If you are only using a 3 GPM shower, then the other 7 GPM go into the pressure tank until it reaches shut off pressure and the motor turns off. But the pump is always drawing about 10 GPM when running. Drawing 10 GPM through small pipe and a long distance will make the pump work more like it is drawing from a shallow well than a pressurized line.
This has a few effects. It adds extra head to the work of the pump, so you need a larger pump. I would size the pump as if I were lifting from about 20’ out of a well. However, with too large of a pump you could collapse the incoming pipe flat as a pancake. Pipe can take a lot of pressure but not a lot of vacuum.
The leaking pump could be from cavitations in the water because of low NPSH. Basically little air bubbles implode and cut the pump in half. The bladder in the tank is busted from cycling on and off while the pump is drawing 10 GPM and you are only using 3 GPM. Like bending a wire until it breaks.
Here is where the CSV can help. The CSV will allow you to use a larger pump, say a 1 HP jet pump that can build higher pressure than a ¾ HP. When used with the small 4.5 gallon tank the CSV will make sure the pump will always be drawing exactly the same amount as you are using. So when you are only using a 3 GPM shower the pump is only drawing 3 GPM from the 800’ of 1” pipe. This will greatly help with the NPSH on the pump and allow you to run and stay at higher pressures. I would run the pressure switch at 50/70, (with the right pump), and set the CSV at 60 PSI. This will give you constant pressure while using water that is the same as the highest pressure you see now just as the pump shuts off.
Stopping the pump from cycling will solve a lot of your problems, and make everything last longer as well."
I am looking at the PK1A setup, with the switch set at 50/70 and the CSV set at 60 like you suggested. I can get the Goulds J10S pump, but I was wondering if I needed anything else?
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