Rim wash issue on Kohler pressure assist

[thefisch]

Hoping you all can provide me some advice on my rim wash issue with one of my three toilets.

Background: House was built in 2005 and original owner had three Kohler pressure assisted toilets installed. I believe the model for all of them is K-3544 Highline Pressure Lite based on the google results for tank model number 4404 and the presence of Sloan Flushmates. All three are the same from what I can tell. From reading another thread on here, the K-3544 seemed to be a popular toilet of 2005. However, most of my neighbors have non-pressure assisted toilets. Over the years I've been the owner, there have been a few flushmate related issues that were fixed with free replacement parts including one complete replacement due to a leak.

My problem toilet is in the master and it seems like water only comes out the siphon jet during the flush. Any paper or waste above the water line does not move or get noticeably wet during the flush cycle. In some cases, paper or waste at the water line only moves down part way during the flush. The suction created by the push of the siphon jet simply pulls down the water and whatever it can pull with it. Water continues to come out the siphon jet long after the bowl is empty – I assume that is excess water volume coming through the siphon jet rather than the rim jets as the flushmate empties its tank.

The other two of my three toilets perform well and do a sufficient rim wash during the flush cycle. There seems to be a good balance of water coming out both the rim and siphon jets. Since they all have the same parts, I suspect the issue is with the bowl in the master.

Here are some of the steps I’ve taken to troubleshoot the rim jet issue in the master:

· I removed the tank to inspect the inlet on the bowl in the master and did not see any obstructions to the inlet for the rim jets. However, that inlet makes a quick turn so there is not much to see. While doing this, I did notice that the gasket between the tank and bowl had some putty on it. Perhaps they had some leaks and added that later. I replaced the gasket and it’s been fine.

· I have also used pipe cleaners to make sure the rim jets are not clogged. I am able to insert a pipe cleaner into all the jets without noticing any obstruction. A few of the rim jets are getting a little wet evidenced by the water absorbed by the pipe cleaner so there is some water getting to the rim jets but not enough.

· After a thorough cleaning, I tried to partially block the siphon jet with my finger during the flush cycle to see if the resistance would direct more water to the rim jets but that did not make a difference.

My assumption is there is some obstruction in the inlet to the rim jets. Any advice on what to do next?

I realize this may be a something that can’t be fixed without replacement.

 

[Terry]

I would try something larger than the pipe cleaner. Perhaps a metal coat hanger that has been cut.
Has it always been that way with the Master bowl, or is this new?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[thefisch]

I would try something larger than the pipe cleaner. Perhaps a metal coat hanger that has been cut.
Has it always been that way with the Master bowl, or is this new?

Thanks for the reply. I will try a coat hanger. Just to be sure I am doing it right and so I don't damage anything, how far into the rim jet do I need to insert the hanger wire? Just an inch to be sure the jet hole is not blocked or deeper?

I think it has always been this way with the master. Here are my thoughts on that:

While the house is 10 years old and I assume the toilets too (it appears based on the dates stamped in the tanks that these were put in back then), I have only owned the house for four years. At first, I thought this flushing action was normal for a pressure assist as I never had one before. And I didn’t realize all the toilets in house were the same model and should work the same so I didn’t pay attention to the differences at first. It wasn’t until three years ago that I really starting looking into this and tried those steps I outlined above. My wife was complaining about how much dirtier the master gets (thought she was blaming me as I use that one the most) but I had to change out the master flushmate tank due to a leak in a joint between the top and bottom half so I thought I would investigate. The others did not leak but were part of the recall and I needed me install the pressure reducer on the line that Sloan sent me.

To test the rim jets, I place dry toilet paper squares around the bowl above the water line at 12, 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 and then observe how wet they get and if they move at all. I also use a mirror and flashlight to see if I can see the water coming out of the rim jets. I checked all the toilets again this morning to see if they acted differently than I recall from three years ago. In the master, the squares do not get wet during the flush – all the action is coming out of the siphon jet. Near the end of the flush as the pressure drops there is a small trickle of water that gets the square at 2 o’clock a little wet (maybe 33% to 50% wet). With the mirror, I can’t see any noticeable quantity of water coming out. With a second flush, the square at 2 gets a little wetter and some water gets on the square at 4 o’clock. None of the squares get flushed away. The others are completely dry. In comparison to three years ago, I would say the master is either the same or a little worse on water coming out the rim jets. Definitely not better.

Doing the same test, the other two toilets saturate the toilet paper and flush away about 2 or 3 of the squares on the first try. Another 1 or 2 go down on the next flush. With this flushmate system, most of the power comes out the siphon jet but there are noticeable streams of water coming out the rim jets of those other two toilets. I also notice that the water level in the bowl after a flush is consistently higher by 2-3 inches in the other two toilets compared to the master which has a lower water level. Given the vast majority of the water is coming out the siphon in the master, I expect that is keeping the water level low as it pushes out the drain until the pressure drops and then water fills up the bowl from the drain area, not the rim jets.

Sorry for such a lengthy response but I thought more detail would help.

 

[Terry]

It could be the bowl. American Standard had some rinsing issues on early Flushmate style bowls too.
Women would complain that the paper dropped at the front of the bowl would never move. I would look and yes, there was no water coming from the end of the bowl to wash the paper down. I guess guys don't think of things like that. I always think that it's a good idea for the men in aprons to run things by their wives before putting new product into production.

 

[thefisch]

Well maybe I just have a bad bowl then since the other two seem to work well enough. Will try the coat hanger but if that doesn't work I guess it's either live with it or replace it. Easier to get a whole new toilet I suppose.

 

[Myflusher]

Fixed my Kohler pressure assisted toilet rim wash!
I know this is an old thread, but thought I would post my experience and fix from this weekend.
When we remodeled a bathroom in 2001, I had a Kohler pressure assist toilet installed, that used the Sloan Flushmate.
Worked great for many years, then it started to have a weak flush, and I determined that the Flushmate pressure tank had a leak, and water would leak into the tank. The longer the period between flushes, the weaker the flush was. Tried to find a replacement Flushmate unit, only to find that the 501-B (round pressure tank) had been discontinued, and I could find no replacement that would fit the Kohler toilet tank (replacement Flushmates were too tall).
I contacted Kohler, and they would send me a new toilet tank, with a current model Flushmate installed, for less than what I could buy just the Flushmate at online dealers. No-brainer, took the Kohler offer.
I installed the Wellworth tank on my older model Kohler bowl (sorry, can't remember that model name, but the tank may have been a K-4404), and it seemed to work, powerful flush again. After a few days I discovered there was a leak between the tank and bowl, so I tightened up the nuts holding the tank to the bowl, and no more leaks.

At some time later, not sure when, I noticed that the rim wash was very weak, to non-existent. So I cleaned the crud under the rim, and tried using a coat hanger to poke the rim holes, and while I did clean out some stuff, the rim wash remained weak. I put up with this for a couple of years, and actually kept a large plastic cup in the bathroom, so that I could do a 'manual rim wash' when flushing the toilet, to wash down the paper that was always stuck to the bowl. The jet at the bottom of the bowl was always powerful, so it was not a water supply or pressure tank issue.
After stumbling across this thread, I thought I'd look into my issue further. So I planned to take the tank off, and see if there was some obstruction, or if the 'new' tank was not compatible with my 'old' bowl, even though Kohler sold it to me as a replacement.
Before I did that, I took a close look at the tank to bowl connection, and noticed that the tank tilted imperceptibly forward. I could see that the front part of the gasket was slightly more compressed than the rear, maybe less than a 1/16 of an inch.
Just to see what would happen, I loosened the two front tank-to-bowl nuts, and pushed the tank back a bit with my hand, and flushed it. Amazingly, there was a bit more rim wash than before, so I thought maybe I was on to something. So I loosened the front nuts a bit more, and the rear nut as well, tilted the tank more, and pressed the flush lever. Bam! Good thing I didn't take the nuts all the way off (only backed them off about 1/2 inch), as the tank launched itself upward, spraying a good bit of water out of the joint, BUT I ALSO GOT A GREAT RIM WASH!!!
Was it a fluke? So I tried it again, bam, launched the tank and got a great rim wash. So I figured my solution would be to get a new gasket, to re-position the tank above the bowl, but being a Sunday evening, nothing would be open, so I would just re-tighten the nuts to stop the leak/spray, and call it a night. That's when I noticed that when the tank landed, it was in a slightly tilted back position, so I tightened up the nuts, keeping the tank tilted, and tried the flush again. Bam! No tank launch, no spray or leak, but I still had a great rim wash in the bowl, with plenty of water coming out the jet! A bonus was that that water height in the bowl after the flush was now back at an appropriate level (previously I only had an inch or two of water in the bowl above the jet after flushing).

Rim wash issue solved for no cost, and only a 1/2 hour of my time to experiment, in tilting the tank slightly rearward. So if you're having a rim wash issue with your Kohler (maybe others as well) pressure assisted toilet, check the positioning of your tank, and maybe give tilting it a try.

 

[thefisch]

Hey appreciate the bump on this old thread. Been living with this issue for years without a solution. So I will be happy to give this one a try and see if it helps my situation too.

 

[thefisch]

Fixed my Kohler pressure assisted toilet rim wash!

Before I did that, I took a close look at the tank to bowl connection, and noticed that the tank tilted imperceptibly forward. I could see that the front part of the gasket was slightly more compressed than the rear, maybe less than a 1/16 of an inch.
Just to see what would happen, I loosened the two front tank-to-bowl nuts, and pushed the tank back a bit with my hand, and flushed it. Amazingly, there was a bit more rim wash than before, so I thought maybe I was on to something. So I loosened the front nuts a bit more, and the rear nut as well, tilted the tank more, and pressed the flush lever. Bam! Good thing I didn't take the nuts all the way off (only backed them off about 1/2 inch), as the tank launched itself upward, spraying a good bit of water out of the joint, BUT I ALSO GOT A GREAT RIM WASH!!!
Was it a fluke? So I tried it again, bam, launched the tank and got a great rim wash. So I figured my solution would be to get a new gasket, to re-position the tank above the bowl, but being a Sunday evening, nothing would be open, so I would just re-tighten the nuts to stop the leak/spray, and call it a night. That's when I noticed that when the tank landed, it was in a slightly tilted back position, so I tightened up the nuts, keeping the tank tilted, and tried the flush again. Bam! No tank launch, no spray or leak, but I still had a great rim wash in the bowl, with plenty of water coming out the jet! A bonus was that that water height in the bowl after the flush was now back at an appropriate level (previously I only had an inch or two of water in the bowl above the jet after flushing).

Rim wash issue solved for no cost, and only a 1/2 hour of my time to experiment, in tilting the tank slightly rearward. So if you're having a rim wash issue with your Kohler (maybe others as well) pressure assisted toilet, check the positioning of your tank, and maybe give tilting it a try.

So I checked for tilt on each of my three Kohler/Flushmate toilets. Using a level on the tanks with lids off, I did notice that the two 'good' toilets were level (bubble just on the line) while the 'bad' one (with little to no rim wash) was tilted forward by a quarter or eighth of an inch. After loosening the front nuts a little and tightening the back one, I was able to get that tank as level as the other ones with good rim wash.

However, despite that adjustment, there appears to be no change in rim wash performance. If I wanted to achieve a backward tilt instead of level, I would definitely need a new gasket as I did see a small amount of water get past the gasket after this small adjustment.

But I probably just have a flawed bowl. Looking back on my experimenting noted above, even when I provided back pressure on the siphon jet, which would theoretically direct more pressure to the rim jets, the results were not different.

 

[Myflusher]

Putting back pressure on the siphon jet, at least in my case, had no effect on the water volume going to the rim jets. I had tried this several times in the past, while trying to figure out why I had such a weak to non-existent rim wash.

I had more than a small amount of water escape when I did my recent testing, but it was worth it, to find that the tank angle would solve the problem.
My tank is not level, I didn't put a level on it, but I do have a slight backward tilt now (by looking at the gap between the tank and bowl).
Given what I have found, I'd bet you'd get a rim wash if you tilted yours backward a bit.

I suspect that the pressurized water is just blowing passed whatever diverter is designed in the bowl structure. In my case (and maybe yours), it's possible that the angle at which the Flushmate blows out it's water, may not be straight down, and missed the diverter. So angling the whole tank backward, compensates for the Flushmate angle, and gets some portion of the water into the diverter to the rim jets.

 

[Maycomm]

Putting back pressure on the siphon jet, at least in my case, had no effect on the water volume going to the rim jets. I had tried this several times in the past, while trying to figure out why I had such a weak to non-existent rim wash.

I had more than a small amount of water escape when I did my recent testing, but it was worth it, to find that the tank angle would solve the problem.
My tank is not level, I didn't put a level on it, but I do have a slight backward tilt now (by looking at the gap between the tank and bowl).
Given what I have found, I'd bet you'd get a rim wash if you tilted yours backward a bit.

I suspect that the pressurized water is just blowing passed whatever diverter is designed in the bowl structure. In my case (and maybe yours), it's possible that the angle at which the Flushmate blows out it's water, may not be straight down, and missed the diverter. So angling the whole tank backward, compensates for the Flushmate angle, and gets some portion of the water into the diverter to the rim jets.

 

[Maycomm]

When I first installed (over 10 years ago) the Kohler toilet I had the same issue as you guys so I called Kohler and told them what was happening with my new toilet. I guess they were having problems with these flushmate toilets before me and said they would send me a new gasket that fits between the top and the bowl. That fixed my problem then. I then had the flushmate replaced after a recall on the 501 model. They sent me a new 503 model and I installed it and was having the same problem that I had when I first installed the toilet. I unfortunately threw away my old unit by then and didn't have the old gasket. so I removed the top from the bowl and looked at hole in the bowl that top fit in and I saw two holes. One larger hole was down toward the bottom and another the smaller one was closer to the top where the gasket lip was partially covering the hole. I concluder that this smaller hole was the path the water was using to go to the rim holes. I looked at the gasket in the hole and marked the lip where the smaller hole was and cut away enough of the lip to allow the hole to show. This did not effect the seal since it was down inside. I put it all back together and it worked like a champ. the rim of the bowl was washed and the bowl filled up with water.

 

[thefisch]

When I first installed (over 10 years ago) the Kohler toilet I had the same issue as you guys so I called Kohler and told them what was happening with my new toilet. I guess they were having problems with these flushmate toilets before me and said they would send me a new gasket that fits between the top and the bowl. That fixed my problem then. I then had the flushmate replaced after a recall on the 501 model. They sent me a new 503 model and I installed it and was having the same problem that I had when I first installed the toilet. I unfortunately threw away my old unit by then and didn't have the old gasket. so I removed the top from the bowl and looked at hole in the bowl that top fit in and I saw two holes. One larger hole was down toward the bottom and another the smaller one was closer to the top where the gasket lip was partially covering the hole. I concluder that this smaller hole was the path the water was using to go to the rim holes. I looked at the gasket in the hole and marked the lip where the smaller hole was and cut away enough of the lip to allow the hole to show. This did not effect the seal since it was down inside. I put it all back together and it worked like a champ. the rim of the bowl was washed and the bowl filled up with water.

Thanks for sharing your mod to the gasket. You're spot on that the smaller hole is for the rim wash. It's been a while since I took the tank off, but I recall that smaller hole on mine was to the right side if you're standing in front of the toilet.

Also, I think the flushmate vessel has a neck that comes down below the tank that you slip the gasket on. I thought that the plastic neck went down past the end of the gasket that creates the tank/bowl seal. Perhaps I am wrong about that. Does the gasket come down a little farther than the neck of the flushmate? Is that the part you trimmed off on one side? How large of a notch did you take out of the gasket?

 

[thefisch]

Thanks again for posting what you did! It was the gasket blocking the smaller hole for the rim jet.

I had a spare gasket as a backup so I decided to check it out today. Here you can see the small inlet for the rim jets at 7-8 o'clock when standing over the bowl. Disregard the old plumber's putty left by the original installer - I cleaned most of it up. I used a small hose and funnel to pour water in the smaller hole to verify it was not blocked internally.

When I looked under the tank at the gasket, there was a tell-tale tattoo on the gasket where it was blocking the smaller inlet. Seeing how much of the gasket was blocking the inlet explains why tilting the tank back didn't work for me but might work for some if theirs isn't blocked as much. The gasket extends a little less than an inch past the neck of the Flushmate vessel so there is room to cut out a notch.

I used a serrated blade to cut a notch in the gasket going up both sides of the tattoo. A box cutter helped slice off the top of the notch. I left the gasket in place while cutting so that the notch would be in the exact spot it needed to be. That let me cut out as little as possible.

Here is the finished mod before reinstall.

Finally after 9 years we finally have a rim wash in the master toilet. So glad I posted this 5 years ago, the answer was worth the wait. Thanks again!

 

[Reach4]

Nice. It looks like the mold had a knockout-like feature at the right spot.

 

[Sideshow Bob]

This info solved my rim wash issue also. Super-helpful. Kohler seems to know nothing about this as they gave no indication to check during multiple troubleshooting calls. Thanks so much!!!