Replacing pressure tank and have a few [stupid] questions

[Reach4]

Back to the check valve...is there any chance that the pump doesn't have one and that is why there is one up by the tank? I'm guessing they've been putting them on all pumps for decades, at least?

One would be in the pump or installed right above the pump. If there is one in the pump, some will install a check valve right above the pump redundancy.

It is possible for that bleeder to be there and not seal.

If you have a bad check valve at the pump or a bleeder that bleeds or a hole in your pipe from the well leaking into the yard, without the topside check valve the pipe will cycle.

There are those who think that a routine topside check valve is a good idea, but it is a minority opinion. There is even currently at least one state that requires such a top side check valve with a submersible pump. Some states say if you have one, you need a vacuum breaker to prevent a vacuum from sucking in yard water. Many states prohibit. I started making a list, but I did not get far. I found nothing for PA. You might search back into the older posts of the forum, and get more discussion on the topic. I find the reasons for not having one compelling.

It is often possible to remove the innards of a check valve for easier restoration later. I have not seen anybody do it, but it would be possible to bypass a check valve with a ball valve for experiment or workaround for a leak later that would be fixed the next time the pump were pulled.

Note that your test of closing the valve to the house while the pressure tank is pressurized is an easy quick test if there is any lingering doubt. You can also close that valve while doing your work at the tank to not have to drain the house pipes.

 

[APK]

Note that your test of closing the valve to the house while the pressure tank is pressurized is an easy quick test if there is any lingering doubt.

I understand now that it is an easy test to figure out which direction the water is flowing from the pump but are you suggesting it's an easy test for something related to the check valve or something else, as well?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

I understand now that it is an easy test to figure out which direction the water is flowing from the pump

Only that.

Test relative to check valve would be to remove valve check innards and make sure the pump did not cycle as a result (while water to the house is turned off).

 

[APK]

Test relative to check valve would be to remove valve check innards and make sure the pump did not cycle as a result (while water to the house is turned off).

So, if I understand correctly, if I remove the check valve by the tank (presuming that's what it is) and the pump cycles on, it may indicate that there is a problem with the check valve at the pump or that there is a bleeder orifice open down the drop pipe or some sort of leak somewhere in the system?

 

[Reach4]

So, if I understand correctly, if I remove the check valve by the tank (presuming that's what it is) and the pump cycles on, it may indicate that there is a problem with the check valve at the pump or that there is a bleeder orifice open down the drop pipe or some sort of leak somewhere in the system?

If it repeats, yes. The pump will always come on after you work on the check valve.

If that is once per day, no big deal. If once per hour, maybe no big deal. If it is once every 10 minutes, big-enough deal IMO.

You have not commented on having air in your water, and you have not commented on having a bang when the pump turns on. So I think there is a good probability that you don't have a bad check valve at the pump or a bleeder.

 

[Valveman]

So, if I understand correctly, if I remove the check valve by the tank (presuming that's what it is) and the pump cycles on, it may indicate that there is a problem with the check valve at the pump or that there is a bleeder orifice open down the drop pipe or some sort of leak somewhere in the system?

Yes that is a check valve. If you remove or gut that check valve, have the ball valve to the house closed, and you are still losing pressure when the pump is off, then you have a bad check on the pump or a hole in the pipe. But like Reach says with a hole in the pipe you usually see air in the faucets, otherwise leaking back is a bad check valve.

 

[APK]

But like Reach says with a hole in the pipe you usually see air in the faucets, otherwise leaking back is a bad check valve.

I see where Reach mentioned that adding too much air might then cause air into the faucets (or at least that's how I understood it) but I'm not sure regarding your comment, here. Is the air in the faucets something I'd see fairly regularly or would there be a particular time?

I do get air into the faucets/hydrants but that's only after irrigating the garden for a while (over an hour or more) - that is literally the only time it happens. It is in fact the reason I called the well guy. I don't believe he thinks it has to do with any holes or leaks in the piping.

 

[Valveman]

If your problem is air coming out the faucets then the air maker system is working and your only problem is you either don't have and Air Volume Control (AVC) on the side of the tank or it is just not working. Do you have a fitting sticking out of the tank about half way up?

 

[Reach4]

I do get air into the faucets/hydrants but that's only after irrigating the garden for a while (over an hour or more) - that is literally the only time it happens.

That could be from pumping the water level down to input to the pump.

 

[Valveman]

Yes but even that would get dispelled by a good AVC and not come out the faucets.

 

[Reach4]

Yes but even that would get dispelled by a good AVC and not come out the faucets.

2. No gadget on the side of the tank.

No AVC, it would seem.

Based on that and where his Schrader valve is, I have high hopes there is no bleeder.

 

[APK]

Do you have a fitting sticking out of the tank about half way up?

Reach, I don't have what I thought of as a "gadget" but there are fittings. The attached photo is showing about halfway up the front of the tank, above the T connections. There are identical fittings on the right side and at the back, both about 4-5" up from the bottom.

That could be from pumping the water level down to input to the pump.

He didn't say it quite the same way but I believe this is what the well guy thinks is happening.

 

[LLigetfa]

If there is an airmaker system of snifter/bleeder/check, those produce air per pump cycle. The more the pump cycles, the more air it adds.

 

[Valveman]

Reach, I don't have what I thought of as a "gadget" but there are fittings. The attached photo is showing about halfway up the front of the tank, above the T connections. There are identical fittings on the right side and at the back, both about 4-5" up from the bottom.

View attachment 63813



He didn't say it quite the same way but I believe this is what the well guy thinks is happening.

There should be an AVC where that plug is and the extra air will get released.

 

[APK]

There should be an AVC where that plug is and the extra air will get released.

Ok, thanks for the info.

Does the lack of an AVC there increase or decrease the likelihood of finding a bleeder down the drop pipe?

Either way, I should have time this week to take a look down the well to see if I can see something.

 

[Reach4]

Does the lack of an AVC there increase or decrease the likelihood of finding a bleeder down the drop pipe?

 

[APK]

If you're confused about my question, I'll try to clarify - but may not be able to.

No AVC, it would seem.

Based on that and where his Schrader valve is, I have high hopes there is no bleeder.

It seems like you indicated that since there is no AVC, there may not be a bleeder on the drop pipe. I'm just wondering now, since it seems like there is supposed to be an AVC but there isn't one, does that change your "hopes" about the bleeder situation.

Maybe it doesn't matter. I will just try to make time this week to see if there is a bleeder.

 

[Reach4]

The fact that there is no AVC makes it unlikely that somebody put in a bleeder.
That there is no snifter valve (special Schrader valve) on the well side of the check valve makes it unlikely that somebody put in a bleeder.
Presence of a Schrader valve) tank side of the check valve makes it unlikely IMO that somebody put in a bleeder.
The fact that air only appears in your water when you have used a lot of water makes it unlikely IMO that somebody put in a bleeder.

I may have been unclear.

Now if you disable or remove the topside check valve, and suddenly you got cycling with no water use, then my opinion would change. But even then, I am not sure I would raise my estimate of there being a bleeder above 50%.

 

[Valveman]

The AVC was probably removed because it was leaking. Happens all the time. You either have a bleeder down the well or a hole in the pipe or you would not have air in the faucets. Without a bleeder the tank usually has the opposite problem and gets water logged instead of having too much air.

 

[Reach4]

The AVC was probably removed because it was leaking. Happens all the time. You either have a bleeder down the well or a hole in the pipe or you would not have air in the faucets.

I know drawing down the water level to the submersible pump intake can also suck air. I did that.

Without a bleeder the tank usually has the opposite problem and gets water logged instead of having too much air.

We agree on that.

Reviewing the original post, I don't see a description of what the problem is. I was thinking there had short cycling, but if it was only air in the lines, I can see that would argue for a bleeder being there. When I asked what the symptoms are in #10, he thought I was joking. When I asked about short cycling in #12, he thought I was doing the punch line. So maybe that means there was no short cycling. In that case APK might as well just as well borrow more time, and not water for more than an hour at a time.