Replacing breakers in obsolete box

[Kat D.]

Hey there, folks. The circuit breaker that powers my dryer has been giving me some trouble. It's an old ITE QT2-3030, with the metal insert that fits the U-shaped anchoring clip on the older ITE breaker boxes (house built in 1963, panel most likely original).

For awhile, the dryer wasn't heating, and the breaker would make a very brief buzzing noise when the dryer was first powered on, but not trip. When I messed with it, I noticed the switch didn't seem to be clicking properly into the off position. After I disconnected and reconnected it, the switch seems to be working properly again and the dryer is heating, but it's still making the buzzing noise, although it's fainter. So that makes me think I should probably go ahead and replace it lest we set my house on fire (please tell me if I'm wrong and a little buzz is normal under the load of a dryer).

I've found a few sources for the correct breaker that will fit the panel so I don't have to do a sketchy rig job with it. What I'm wondering is if I should order two of the QT2-3030s and also replace the newer breaker on the left, which is working fine but isn't a true fit for my panel. Because it doesn't seat completely properly, the pressure of the panel cover is helping to hold it in place, and that sketches me out.

The weird thing to me is that the breaker on the left doesn't have a linkage between the two outer switches. I'm sure it's just an updated version of the same thing (part number Q23030, type QT), but the outer switches can be operated independently. So I just want to be 100% sure that the older QT2-3030 *is* the equivalent of what's there now. The sticker is hard to read in the pics below, but it definitely shows both the inner and the outer switches as linked and 240 V.A.C., NOT the outer switches as single-pole 120s.

(And yes, I know replacing the whole panel would be ideal, but that's above my skill level ... and while I can afford a couple breakers and replace them myself, parts/labor for a full replacement is most likely out of reach for now.)

Here are some pictures of the panel and breakers in question ...

Whole panel, cover off:

Breaker that's buzzing (you can see how the center switch wasn't settling properly into the "OFF" position. It now is.

Panel diagram inside door for good measure (sorry for dark photo, but you get the gist):

 

[Highlander]

There are a few “flavors” of those quad breakers, some have a common trip in the middle and independent trips on either side, some have a common trip in the middle and the outers are also another common trip pair (CT and CT2 suffix for Siemens models). Whichever type is appropriate depends on what loads/circuits are connected.

If for example you have the dryer in the middle and a central AC condenser on the outers you want a CT2. A 220V device needs common trip, same for two 120V circuits that share the same neutral (kitchen split plug etc).

Can’t quite read what is fed by that breaker on the left - an air handler in the middle but what’s on the outers? and maybe it’s the picture but the wires on the left look a bit small compared to the dryer wires - is that indeed another 30A load?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Kat D.]

Right side breaker is dryer (inner) and air compressor (outer). Left side breaker is air handler (inner) and the outlet the washer is plugged into (outer, maybe just one of them? Is that even possible?). That circuit might not *just* be the washer outlet, but I know it's on there. I think all the wire weights are the same but I won't swear to it. I can probably get a clearer picture of the label tomorrow before work.

The buzz from the dryer breaker is very brief, like half a second, and only right when the dryer starts.

 

[Stuff]

Lots of panels use the cover to hold the breakers in. Downright scary removing/installing a cover on some old panels.

A multi-wire branch circuit (MWBC) requires handle-ties but it didn't use to. Possible that the outer handle tie was removed?

Not that it matters but the breaker with the green label appears to be a GE TR. I wonder what was originally listed as compatible.

 

[Kat D.]

Lots of panels use the cover to hold the breakers in. Downright scary removing/installing a cover on some old panels.

A multi-wire branch circuit (MWBC) requires handle-ties but it didn't use to. Possible that the outer handle tie was removed?

Not that it matters but the breaker with the green label appears to be a GE TR. I wonder what was originally listed as compatible.

I wondered if the handle-tie (and thanks; I now know what that linkage is called) might have been removed because it was further interfering with the cover seating properly. Seems likely?

So back to the original question(s) — assuming this should have had a handle-tie and doesn’t, is my next step to order two of the 30/30 quad breakers that actually fit the board and install them?

 

[Highlander]

The way I see it from here, before ordering anything for that left breaker you need to determine exactly what those two “outer” breakers are feeding. A washing machine outlet is usually 15A or 20A at most, the 30A breaker may not be sized properly. Washing machine outlets are also 120V and only need one breaker position so what is connected to the other half of that pair? Follow the two wires on those breakers, do they go to individual cables and do they both have neutrals connected to the neutral bar? Or are both wires part of the same cable without a neutral? What is the gauge of those wires? This will help determine whether you need them to be independent (i.e. without a handle tie) or common trip. Normally it’s a “replace like-with-like” situation but I’m not convinced yet that the existing one is correct.

 

[Kat D.]

The way I see it from here, before ordering anything for that left breaker you need to determine exactly what those two “outer” breakers are feeding. A washing machine outlet is usually 15A or 20A at most, the 30A breaker may not be sized properly. Washing machine outlets are also 120V and only need one breaker position so what is connected to the other half of that pair? Follow the two wires on those breakers, do they go to individual cables and do they both have neutrals connected to the neutral bar? Or are both wires part of the same cable without a neutral? What is the gauge of those wires? This will help determine whether you need them to be independent (i.e. without a handle tie) or common trip. Normally it’s a “replace like-with-like” situation but I’m not convinced yet that the existing one is correct.

Are you saying that if it were originally a common trip (which I believe to be the case based on the breaker’s label) that the handle tie might have been removed so that those two positions would operate separately?

 

[Reach4]

I guess it is established that the red and black wires on the humming breaker is feeding an electric dryer?

I suspect it is possible that if you open that breaker, you may have a fairly low resistance to ground on the red wire. It should be a high resistance, or if the dryer has some 120 volt stuff, the resistance should still be well over 10 ohms. A partial ground fault on that wire could explain humming and occasional tripping of the red wire leg.

I am not saying that is likely, but it might be worth testing.

 

[Highlander]

Are you saying that if it were originally a common trip (which I believe to be the case based on the breaker’s label) that the handle tie might have been removed so that those two positions would operate separately?

Whoever was in there may have intended to do it for that reason, however doesn’t quite work that way. The “trip”, when it detects too much current, is internally tied to both if it’s that type, the handle tie is only to make sure both sides get turned off when someone wants to do work or otherwise power down the circuit. In this case you can power down either side separately but a short or overload one side would trip both, based on info provided.

I still think there’s a good chance someone did some creative/lazy work at some point and that’s not the proper breaker for the situation. Unless it’s a very odd washer that plugs into a 220V 30A plug, which is very unlikely.

 

[Kat D.]

Are you saying that if it were originally a common trip (which I believe to be the case based on the breaker’s label) that the handle tie might have been removed so that those two positions would operate separately?

Whoever was in there may have intended to do it for that reason, however doesn’t quite work that way. The “trip”, when it detects too much current, is internally tied to both if it’s that type, the handle tie is only to make sure both sides get turned off when someone wants to do work or otherwise power down the circuit. In this case you can power down either side separately but a short or overload one side would trip both, based on info provided.

That makes sense. So you're saying, if it's just powering normal outlets/lights/whatever, the proper (and presumably safer, since it's lower-rated) breaker would probably be a double-pole central 30 with two single-pole 15s or 20s on the outsides?

I still think there’s a good chance someone did some creative/lazy work at some point and that’s not the proper breaker for the situation. Unless it’s a very odd washer that plugs into a 220V 30A plug, which is very unlikely.

Nah, my washer plugs into a regular 120V wall outlet (it's a big one with a reset switch, but it's definitely not a 220). I'm not sure how much luck I'll have tracing the wires, but I can definitely figure out what else, if anything, is on those switches. "Creative" previous repairs are highly likely here.

 

[Kat D.]

I guess it is established that the red and black wires on the humming breaker is feeding an electric dryer?

I suspect it is possible that if you open that breaker, you may have a fairly low resistance to ground on the red wire. It should be a high resistance, or if the dryer has some 120 volt stuff, the resistance should still be well over 10 ohms. A partial ground fault on that wire could explain humming and occasional tripping of the red wire leg.

I am not saying that is likely, but it might be worth testing.

OK, to out myself further as a novice here ... by opening it you just mean switching it to the open position, right? Not cracking the case somehow? I do have a multimeter but haven't yet taught myself to use it, though I'm reasonably confident that I can.

It's not *humming*, just emitting a brief (like less than half a second) "bzzzzt" when the dryer kicks on. Before I disconnected and reconnected it, the dryer would run but not heat, and I was unable to get the switch to seat properly in the "off" position. Now the dryer does run and heat, and the switch seats properly, but I'm still hearing the brief buzz. I swapped the other tandem 30 into that spot to test it and it didn't buzz, so I'm fairly confident about needing to simply replace that breaker.

But because finding these obsolete parts can be tricky and shipping isn't always cheap, I'd like to order both the replacement for that *and* whatever I need on the left at the same time ... unless this is super likely to set my house on fire in the meantime.

 

[Stuff]

This is getting ugly. If feeding the washer most likely you have a 15amp circuit (14 gauge wire).

Can you check the air handler to see what it requires? What size wires are feeding it?

 

[Reach4]

OK, to out myself further as a novice here ... by opening it you just mean switching it to the open position, right?

Yes.

 

[Kat D.]

Just to further clarify the challenge of finding breakers that are a correct fit, this is what the "clips" that the breakers need to anchor into look like. They aren't compatible with the newer ones that have the piece that locks in under the more rectangular shaped tabs. The old ITE breaker that's buzzing, but actually *fits*, has these nifty little metal inserts that lock in to these U-shaped tabs. Most of the listings on ebay, parts sites, etc., don't show that part of the breaker, so it makes it tough to be certain I'm looking at something I'll be able to seat correctly.

(The Siemens breaker on the left, the one we now think might actually be the wrong type of breaker for its load, had its plastic "feet" cut out so it would sit flat in there, but still doesn't really seat properly, so I have to rely on the panel cover to help hold it in place.)

 

[Kat D.]

This is getting ugly. If feeding the washer most likely you have a 15amp circuit (14 gauge wire).

Can you check the air handler to see what it requires? What size wires are feeding it?

OK, so here is what I have figured out!

The upper and lower switches on the left breaker are indeed linked to separate circuits, and do indeed have narrower wires feeding into them. These are 12ga wires as far as I can tell (they fit that spot on my wire stripper and the yellow one is actually marked with a "12"). The lower one is, as far as I can tell, powering ONLY the outlet my washing machine is plugged into, which is a regular 120V outlet, one of the types with its own built-in reset/breaker switch. The upper one traces back and feeds into the wall on the opposite side of the breaker. It is for sure powering one regular 120V outlet in the utility room. I haven't 100 percent determined that it's not powering anything else, as I haven't nailed down which breakers control my carport outlet, carport light (which needs a bulb before I can figure that out for sure), or the backyard floodlight.

The center, tandem 30A switch is hooked to 10 gauge wires and as far as I can tell powers *only* the air handler, which says on the sticker that it's rated 240/208V with heater and 230/208V without.

So, my understanding is that the left breaker most likely needs to be a 30 tandem in the middle with 2 single-pole 15s or 20s on each side? My next question is how I can confirm which I need for certain.

FWIW, I may try and get a few estimates for just updating the whole shebang before I proceed any further ... but I suspect the answer isn't gonna be that this is something I can just pull $5-600 bucks out of savings to cover. :/

 

[Reach4]

So, my understanding is that the left breaker most likely needs to be a 30 tandem in the middle with 2 single-pole 15s on each side. My next question is how I can confirm that for certain.

See if the outside wires are marked as 12 AWG. If so, those would normally get 20 amp breaker poles, but you could use 15 if that breaker unit is easier to get.

What else are you trying to confirm?

 

[Kat D.]

Most of these wires are old and the casings unmarked, but the yellow one definitely had a 12 and definitely fit my 12-ga stripper.

So I'll be looking for a quad 30/30 that fits the ITE box for the right side, and ideally a 20/30/20 for the left, it sounds like?

 

[Stuff]

Sounds like the washer receptacle is GFCI. 20 amp should make it easier finding the right ITE breaker.

If you don't upgrade the service (100 amp now?) then a Craigslist trunk slammer might be in your budget to replace just the panel.

 

[Kat D.]

Sounds like the washer receptacle is GFCI. 20 amp should make it easier finding the right ITE breaker.

If you don't upgrade the service (100 amp now?) then a Craigslist trunk slammer might be in your budget to replace just the panel.

Yeah, it's a GFCI outlet. And I might know someone, or know someone who knows someone, with the skillset needed to do the panel work. I assume my house already has 100 amp service but I don't know for certain. How would I go about checking that?

 

[Reach4]

I assume my house already has 100 amp service but I don't know for certain. How would I go about checking that?

What amp rating is your main breaker? If 100, you have 100.

If less than 100, you will ask the power company about their drop wires. You will be responsible for some wires too. You can measure the diameter of the existing feed. There are plastic calipers which you could use to measure the supply wires hot, if you don't see markings.