During a recent power outage, I lost water pressure in the house very quickly, which never had been an issue before. Diagnosed as a bad check valve off of the T, replaced the valve, and that issue was resolved. I've lived in this house for 10+ years, and the well system had been 100% trouble-free until the check valve failure. I did some other maintenance checks at this time, and discovered my pressure tank was only at 4 psi after draining the tank to zero system pressure. I was surprised to see this, since I've had no water pressure issues in the house. I added air to the tank to get it up to 28 psi (30/50 pressure switch), and when I turned on the system, didn't notice any change in performance. I did notice that the system only takes ~25 seconds to fill the pressure tank, which should be a minute or more to extend pump life from what I've read. My pressure tank is an Amtrol WX-202 (20 gal) with a 1989 date code on it, which happens to be when my home was built. I did the drawdown test, and I got ~5.25 gallons of water our of it (spec is 6.2 gallons from Amtrol), putting my pump output somewhere~11 gpm. I don't have any info on my well pump in terms of brand/age/hp/etc. I've checked the air pressure in the tank several times again over the past couple of weeks, and it is steady at 28 psi. If I shake the tank when empty, I do not hear any water sloshing around in it, and do not get any water coming from the Schrader valve up top. When the tank is full and do the tap test, it only has water ~1/3 way up, which sounds normal. Outside of the fact that my drawdown volume is a little low, and the tank is over 30 years old, it doesn't seem to be faulty. Logic would say my tank is undersized for my pump output, but with the short ~25 second cycle, I would be surprised that my pump would have lasted 10+ years like this. The math would say I should have a 30 or 40 gallon tank to get the 1 minute minimum run time for the pump flow rate. Anything else I am missing here that would be causing the short cycling? Thanks.
Pressure tank problem?
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LLigetfa
DIYer, not in the trades
Have you calibrated the water pressure gauge to the air pressure gauge? Maybe the drawdown discrepancy lies there.
have you checked that the PS nipple is free from debris? did you place a hose bid pressure gauge on the tank to verify pressures? In any case that tank is old enough to warrant replacement. It may be best to replace the switch as well.
I have tested the tank air pressure when the system is pressurized with water, and that value matches up pretty well with the pressure on the water pressure gauge. I was wondering if there could be some accumulated sediment on the bottom of the tank that could be the reason from the lower drawdown value from spec?
Sarg
Enjoy Learning
Sounds a little bit like what I went through in November except my issue was a combination of a faulty pressure tank with a small bladder split and a leaking "second" check valve at the pressure tank causing the system to cycle every 15 minutes without usage...... then after I replaced the external check valve at the new tank with a CSV ..... realized the "pump check valve" was leaking down. ( system would cycle every 30 minutes or so ) Replaced the 28 year old Franklin pump and all is well in the well.
The pros on this site all seem to agree the "one" check valve should be at the pump ... not at the pressure tank. Putting a second one at the tank is just "hiding" the fault of the pump check valve. ( And holding the 5 gallons of water in your 20 gal. tank to prevent the system from cycling.)
One thing I noticed was I only realized the tank bladder was bad when I pulled the tank out and shook it to hear the small amount of water above the bladder.
The pros on this site all seem to agree the "one" check valve should be at the pump ... not at the pressure tank. Putting a second one at the tank is just "hiding" the fault of the pump check valve. ( And holding the 5 gallons of water in your 20 gal. tank to prevent the system from cycling.)
One thing I noticed was I only realized the tank bladder was bad when I pulled the tank out and shook it to hear the small amount of water above the bladder.
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I have not touched the PS yet, it seems to be doing the job from what I can see. Kicks on at 28 psi on the gauge, and off at 50 psi. I should have mentioned the pressure gauge on the T is new, I swapped that out when I replaced the check valve because the old one was pretty crusty. I have not attached a separate gauge to the bib to verify new pressure gauge is correct. I can see if the pump is kicking off before reaching the 50 psi how that could short the volume of water in the tank if the runtime was closer to a minute, but my drawdown was about 1 gallon short of spec, and runtime was only 25 secs. Might not be a bad idea to swap out the PS and nipple, could always re-use on a new tank if I need to go that way.
Sarg
Enjoy Learning
Just to mention ......... when I tore down my old system the 1/4 ..... 3" long pressure switch nipple was almost totally packed with sediment with only a tiny hole through it. Also ..... my current well cycle ( without water usage ) is also about 30 seconds.
I recommend the Cycle Stop Valve. When using a steady amount of water (showers) the system stays at 43 psi until the usage stops. ( 30/50 switch )
I recommend the Cycle Stop Valve. When using a steady amount of water (showers) the system stays at 43 psi until the usage stops. ( 30/50 switch )
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Bannerman
Well-Known Member
The pump should become activated at 30 psi, not 28. Because the switch is also shutting the pump off below 50 psi, it appears the PS adjustment nut with the large spring only requires a small adjustment.
An alternative to installing a larger tank will be to install a Cycle Stop Valve.
Valveman is a moderator on this forum and is also the developer and manufacturer of CSVs.
To understand the benefits of a CSV, view the video on the homepage of the link below.
https://cyclestopvalves.com/
Interesting...after replacing the check valve by the tank (which looked original), I would get a momentary drop in the water pressure maybe 1 in 10 times when the pump would cycle on. Originally thought my new valve was sticking, but your experience makes we wonder if there is some leakdown at the pump end creating an air gap before the tank check valve. I have no info on the well itself or any of the equipment down in it, all was there when I bought the place. More to check into...
It sounds like you have a new pump and tank, along with a CSV. How large of tank did you get? I've read about the CSVs, and sounds like a small tank is all that is needed since only needs a gallon or so reserve by how it keeps constant pressure for the differing system demands. Is your new pump a high gpm one? I assume that is why your run time would be only 30 seconds?
this ^^ The cut-in should be (at least) 2 psi above the bladder pressure. if you've never adjusted a ps, make sure the power is off to the well pump and turn in the larger screw (about 1 full turn). If a water softener is in use 40/60 psi is recommended
Sorry...the 28 psi is a typo, the pump is kicking on at 30 psi as it is supposed to. Getting my tank and kick-on pressures mixed up. Interesting comment on the water softener, I do not have one currently, but there was one that I removed years ago that came with the house that was not functional. I did not change anything with the well when I removed, they were using the 30/50 switch in the past when the water softener was functional it seems.
Sarg
Enjoy Learning
It is a 20 gal. Dayton ... only because I had bought it in preparation of replacement ..... long before I knew anything about CSVs. The new pump is a Gould 3/4 hp. in a 200 foot hole and I thought about a 7 gpm pump ......... AND your calculation made me think. So I just went and timed my cycle and it turns out to be way off from my estimation ........ really at 130 seconds. ( An error in my head I can't explain )
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
Sarg,
With your tank being larger than needed and with an excessively long shutoff time, you might consider adjusting the CSV to increase the regulated pressure above the current 43 psi setting.
You could also reduce the PS differential below the usual 20 psi. I recall Valveman stating the minimum differential will be around 16 psi.
With your tank being larger than needed and with an excessively long shutoff time, you might consider adjusting the CSV to increase the regulated pressure above the current 43 psi setting.
You could also reduce the PS differential below the usual 20 psi. I recall Valveman stating the minimum differential will be around 16 psi.
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Sarg
Enjoy Learning
Please explain ........... Would the benefit be the increased pressure only ?
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
Increasing the regulated pressure will reduce the pump run time after there is no further water consumption.
The pressure rise from 30 to 43 or higher, is governed by the pump's usual flow capacity so that pressure increase will be rapid. The flow rate from 43 (or higher) to 50 psi shutoff will be restricted by the CSV to only 1 GPM. Only 1-gallon max between the regulated pressure to the cut-out pressure is all that will be needed.
See the additional info regarding pressure differential added to my previous post.
The pressure rise from 30 to 43 or higher, is governed by the pump's usual flow capacity so that pressure increase will be rapid. The flow rate from 43 (or higher) to 50 psi shutoff will be restricted by the CSV to only 1 GPM. Only 1-gallon max between the regulated pressure to the cut-out pressure is all that will be needed.
See the additional info regarding pressure differential added to my previous post.
LLigetfa
DIYer, not in the trades
That is a compromise and will result in a longer delay at low pressure before the pump comes on.
Worth a try but many pressure switches won't let you reduce the delta to less than 20. I would raise the cut-in and cut-out settings on the pressure switch to 40/60 and set the CSV to 50.
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
The CSV is not regulating pressure unless the pump is delivering water. The system pressure will need to drop to the cut-in pressure regardless of the CSV's regulated pressure setting so increasing the CSV adjustment in of itself will not result in any delay.
If the PS differential is capable of being reduced to 15 PSI, the system would then only need to drop to 35 psi before the pump becomes activated.
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Sarg
Enjoy Learning
Did not mean to push into CDNs thread but it's all education so I guess it is good.
I tried messing with the switch differential (small) screw before on a new switch and learned I won't do it again. Ended up replacing the switch after I got the first one totally out of whack.
Bannerman > I truly appreciate you and the other members that share your knowledge.
I will adjust the CSV up a tad but won't mess with the PS ........ the 30/50 range is fine .... especially with all the polybutylene piping in this place.
I tried messing with the switch differential (small) screw before on a new switch and learned I won't do it again. Ended up replacing the switch after I got the first one totally out of whack.
Bannerman > I truly appreciate you and the other members that share your knowledge.
I will adjust the CSV up a tad but won't mess with the PS ........ the 30/50 range is fine .... especially with all the polybutylene piping in this place.
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