PEX underground for main supply from the street...

[Boink]

I just read (in UPC 604) this footnote, and I'm not sure what to make of it. I suppose my local licensed plumber will know. Still, this strikes me as odd:

"2 When PEX tubing is placed in soil and is used in potable water systems intended to supply drinking water to fixtures or appliances, the tubing or piping shall be sleeved with a material approved for potable water use in soil or other material that is impermeable to solvents or petroleum products."

 

[Jeff H Young]

I just read (in UPC 604) this footnote, and I'm not sure what to make of it. I suppose my local licensed plumber will know. Still, this strikes me as odd:

"2 When PEX tubing is placed in soil and is used in potable water systems intended to supply drinking water to fixtures or appliances, the tubing or piping shall be sleeved with a material approved for potable water use in soil or other material that is impermeable to solvents or petroleum products."

I'm not so sure your local plumber will know even though none of us are so well versed or bothering to share, but breplum brought it up Thanks to him I feel a little dumb but I don't run that underground anyway, I'm thinking the soft poly sleeve that's like 6 mill might be legal . I know the poly sleeve is legal on copper water lines , that note doesn't say it needs a full length seal or needs to be water tight .
Kind of weird yes If this crap is that bad it should be double contained.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Boink]

I'm just intrigued that I've heard of PEX used for supply lines without any reference to being protected. I suppose I can always use copper (since my run is short).
So, I guess I'll defer to the prevailing practices in my area... perhaps even confirm with the city.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Years ago when we repiped my sisters house, the water department put a backwater valve on her meter because we used PEX directly buried. They claimed that PEX can leach pesticides. So now we sleeve all of our water services.. mostly because most of them are directionally bored now days and its much more cost effective.

And a note on sleeving. If you choose to do electrical conduit for sleeving. Make sure that all your joints only go One direction like bell and spigot. Pipe can get hung up on fittings at corners JUST as you're only feet or inches away from getting the tube all the way through..

 

[Jeff H Young]

Years ago when we repiped my sisters house, the water department put a backwater valve on her meter because we used PEX directly buried. They claimed that PEX can leach pesticides. So now we sleeve all of our water services.. mostly because most of them are directionally bored now days and its much more cost effective.

That's the story I've heard for years as well, don't know when it became code , Since I know its code now I would sleeve it for sure and I guess completely water tight underground not just under a driveway . I do 10 percent water mains in copper and 90 percent PVC I think ill keep it that way . the repairs I do are pretty much mixed between gal copper and PVC . Im thinking tons of guys just bury PEX but not many copping to it

 

[wwhitney]

"2 When PEX tubing is placed in soil and is used in potable water systems intended to supply drinking water to fixtures or appliances, the tubing or piping shall be sleeved with a material approved for potable water use in soil or other material that is impermeable to solvents or petroleum products."

This is a California amendment to the UPC. It's not in the base UPC, nor in Oregon's or Washington's plumbing code. If I recall, adoption of PEX in California was delayed, and this requirement may have been part of a compromise for allowing PEX in California. Elsewhere in the California code there's some language about flushing PEX potable water pipes before occupancy.

As to the requirement itself, it's clearly only for underground PEX. So using electrical PVC elbows as bend supports for above ground PEX would not be prohibited by this section. I didn't find anything else that would prohibit it.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Boink]

OK, turns out that in Portland (Oregon) we can use the latest PEX (don't recall what type but type doesn't use those simple metal clamps) for direct burial underground... and run any sweeps through any sort of conduit (all inspected by the City).
They'll trench using one of those blaster/vacuum machines to do the work much faster than I could dig it in preparation for the crew.
One thing that was recommended (but not required) was the addition of a pressure-regulator (with shut-off on both sides) as well as an expansion-tank at the water heater. Seems reasonable to keep maintain 70psi... but adds to the job. Do most recommend it?

 

[Terry]

What is your pressure off the meter?
Code wants 80 PSI or less. The new PEX? You mean Uponor expansion PEX, the kind I use. I don't like digging water service trenches anymore either. I remember replacing a water service for Dr. McLean, my dentist the day that Mt. St. Helens blew it's top. I was on Hilltop, down the street from where I had built two homes, and never even thought to drive to the other side of Hilltop to view the ash from the volcano.

One day getting my teeth done, Dr. McLean mentioned

"It's almost as if you had designed those homes for the lots."

Well sure, that 22 degree offset on the three car garage, and the sunroom facing South was just a coincidence.

I'm in the blue shirt with red strip, Randy Love is wearing the tie.

 

[Boink]

Yep... the "Uponor" (compression stuff) PEX.
I guess this new trenching gizmo (can't recall the name) is a high-pressure water vacuum system that sort of sucks a trench into existence. I'm told it's quick and then they back-fill with something else.

 

[Terry]

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ice-sewer-line-repair-outdoor-plumbing.73835/

 

[Boink]

I think the thing they'll use might be different. They do have a boring machine that they'll use for part of the job (consisting of a small stretch at the meter which is in the street), but I think the main trench is literally sucked into existence.

 

[Reach4]

Yep... the "Uponor" (compression stuff) PEX.
I guess this new trenching gizmo (can't recall the name) is a high-pressure water vacuum system that sort of sucks a trench into existence. I'm told it's quick and then they back-fill with something else.

Nice. Post a good photo or two.

I hope the top several inches of what they back-fill with is top soil. You don't want "black dirt".

The PEX should not be under tension in the trench, but rather it should snake some. If the weather is cold when they put the PEX in, that would be good. You don't want warm tight PEX then contracting underground.

 

[Paulypfunk]

I read UPC chapter six and I don’t see anything prohibiting a PVC sleeve bend support. I’m talking about the water running through the inside of the PEX and the outside of the PEX being run through the inside of the larger PVC fitting to hold it in the 90 degree angle. If that’s illegal someone should tell Uponor because that’s who I was buying them from.

 

[Boink]

I've got my guy picked out and the work is nearly scheduled. Here's his written description of the trenching portion:

Excavation - Vacuum Excavation
Vacuum excavation is a process of “digging” by means of employing a high pressure water jet nozzle that pulverizes the dirt into a slurry that gets vacuumed “sucked” up into a holding tank. These original soils are hauled away from job site and disposed of properly. This method of excavation over other traditional means is beneficial in that:
- it’s much safer to dig around other hidden underground utilities
- removing original soils from job site allows for better backfill media to be used such as crushed gravel that beds the new pipe and fitting repair preventing undue stress and failures
- crush gravel back fill will be compacted preventing settling.

I have a small garbage can full of sand I'm going to have them use, and I have plenty of top-soil to finish the job.
I'll take pics and post here in a week or so. Thanks to all!

 

[Paulypfunk]

It’s not that PEX ‘leaches pesticides’. It’s that PEX is a semi permeable membrane and stuff can leach through the sidewalks. Same reason you need to use oxygen barrier PEX in a iron component heating system. I’ve encounter it first hand when a PEX water service was run right next to a leaky fuel oil tank. The customers were complaining of an off taste to their water. It tasted like diesel.

 

[Paulypfunk]

* side wall, not sidewalk. Stupid autocorrect.

 

[Jeff H Young]

It’s not that PEX ‘leaches pesticides’. It’s that PEX is a semi permeable membrane and stuff can leach through the sidewalks. Same reason you need to use oxygen barrier PEX in a iron component heating system. I’ve encounter it first hand when a PEX water service was run right next to a leaky fuel oil tank. The customers were complaining of an off taste to their water. It tasted like diesel.

Didn't realize its just a Ca requirement . I won't be using it underground unsleeved

 

[Boink]

JOB DONE, and it turned out very nice. They used a really interesting ($70K) machine on its own trailer for trenching: basically a huge pressure-washer and a gigantic vacuum cleaner! They literally sucked a trench where they wanted it (and rather quickly too). The pressure-washer blasted while the vacuum took all that material away. The new 1" PEX-A main has a nice sweep on it.

 

[Boink]

They removed the old outside vault that had a really awful, old (50 year) PRV system that had a total of 7 ninety-degree elbows (and all long-since buried under at least a foot of dirt/sand)! All that gear (PRV with shut-offs on both sides of it) was moved into joists of the house (in a protected area)... and they added an expansion tank at the water heater.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Thanks Boink. I thought it was being bored underground . Interesting job process