I know that there is a difference in pump wiring. I'm at my wits end. need water.

[Randy Sellers]

Agreed.

Do you guys sell equipment parts xcetera? The information you are giving and the knowledge I'm receiving it is absolutely priceless says a sitting on the toilet with no water, LOL. Another thing is I went from a one-horse to two horse with 12/2 and a 20 amp breaker I'm needing 10/2 30 amp breaker correct?

 

[Randy Sellers]

OK I found that model number. It is a 2 wire 2HP, which is strange. But put 240 volts to the two hot wires and see if it is drawing 11.8 amps. No amps means the pump is not getting power. High amps means the pump is locked up or not running. Above 6-7 amps means the pump is running and the flow is plugged off somewhere. Less than 6-7 amps means it is not getting any water or the screen is clogged up.

I thank you very much that's what I'm going to go check I will be offline for a little while I will let you know what I find thanks again. Does anybody have any experience and shoving the wife down the well to let her see what's going on. so she can report back to me, not like I really have to shove her down there. that winch knows everything. And she probably could use a good shower LOL kind of stinky around here. But seriously thank you guys

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Randy Sellers]

on

44

OK I found that model number. It is a 2 wire 2HP, which is strange. But put 240 volts to the two hot wires and see if it is drawing 11.8 amps. No amps means the pump is not getting power. High amps means the pump is locked up or not running. Above 6-7 amps means the pump is running and the flow is plugged off somewhere. Less than 6-7 amps means it is not getting any water or the screen is clogged up.

 

[Randy Sellers]

So yesterday I put 240 volts to the pump. Double-checked the voltage was correct. Amp test. Which Feldman was so kindly to give me. At this point I have no amperage coming from the pumps to the top of the well casing. So today I'm pulling it I suspect burned-out wires it is my hope that when I replace wires problem will be solved. Considering the lesson that I have been having it will leave me to other problems. I guess what I mean by other problems something has caused my wires 2 do what they done. I guess I don't need to speculate. Rather than just stick with the facts. Thank you valveman. Another question I'm going to make a homemade apparatus to help pull the pump considering it's just me and I am getting close to 60 years old with stage 3 kidney failure due to me donating a kidney. I need all the help I can get so anybody has any suggestions that would be appreciated as well. I do plan on fabricating something out of 4x4 Steel I'm quite handy with the torch and welder thanks again

 

[Reach4]

I need all the help I can get so anybody has any suggestions that would be appreciated as well. I do plan on fabricating something out of 4x4 Steel I'm quite handy with the torch and welder thanks again

Borrowing to get it done quickly and professionally may be a good idea. Borrowing money to buy a new care is usually not

Your frost line is about 20 inches. While you should have a pitless adapter, you may not. Maybe post a photo of what you can see. If you have a well seal, with a pipe going though it, post that picture. If you have a well cap with no piping in the top, you would probably have a pitless adapter. In that case, lift the well cap, and take a picture of what is down the well. A mirror can reflect the sun down there for better lighting.

Do you know what your drop pipe is-- poly, PVC, steel?

I would not do my own.

Is 44 how far down the pump is or how far down the water is?

 

[Randy Sellers]

Borrowing to get it done quickly and professionally may be a good idea. Borrowing money to buy a new care is usually not

Your frost line is about 20 inches. While you should have a pitless adapter, you may not. Maybe post a photo of what you can see. If you have a well seal, with a pipe going though it, post that picture. If you have a well cap with no piping in the top, you would probably have a pitless adapter. In that case, lift the well cap, and take a picture of what is down the well. A mirror can reflect the sun down there for better lighting.

Do you know what your drop pipe is-- poly, PVC, steel?

I would not do my own.

Is 44 how far down the pump is or how far down the water is?

 

[Randy Sellers]

My pump is 227 of down the hole 177 ft of water above it then 50 feet of air. I will get pictures shortly but this is my third time in eight years of taking it up. It's not that I don't anything wrong . It's my understanding I was doing everything correctly or as instructed. Lowe's only hires people that are experts in the field they are in. And they talk as if they're experts also. I listened two older man in the plumbing department he advised me what to do however he advised me what to do in correctly . and now some 7 years later when I'm reading your forum. The difference in opinions of the check valves is absolutely amazing and I believe what you gentlemen say . You just make better sense. sir you are correct I have a pitless adapter. The top of my well casing is a cap with a a large piece of rubber in between two pieces of Steel
with two holes one for electrical wire the for the rope and one in center for the pipe It is the black 1 inch poly .I purchased a 300-foot piece pipe so I would not have spices between the The Pump and the top. Previously placed 3 check valve one 25 ft above the pump and then every hundred foot above it. Now I have no check valve between the pump and just as you go into my pressure tank I have one check valve at the T as the pressure came should I remove that? When you gentlemen speak of vacuum I believe I got a full understanding the other night when I cut the main pipe loose at the holding tank I could hear the suction and I could hear it going all the way back down to the bottom of the well put my hand over that pipe and it had suction. I'm understanding now that's why you don't need a check valve. I do have a safety rope tied off to the pump. I'm hearing a lot of conflicts on that as well. Do you recommend safety rope or not mind you I am heating the black pipe 4 easier connection to the barbs. And then I'm heating it again gently so my black pipe takes the shape of the barbs and then double clamping you can't take it apart unless you cut it

 

[Reach4]

My pump is 227 of down the hole 177 ft of water above it then 50 feet of air. I will get pictures shortly but this is my third time in eight years of taking it up.

I think saying that you have pulled the pump yourself before, so no pictures needed.

You would like to replace the O-ring on the pitless. If you know the pitless brand, you could have one ready. If not, measure the o-ring for future getting of a new o-ring. When you put the pitless back, you want to lightly lube the o-ring with a silicone grease or silicone release compound. I would use my Molykote 111.

I do have a safety rope tied off to the pump. I'm hearing a lot of conflicts on that as well. Do you recommend safety rope or not

Based on the people in the know, I would not use a safety rope. It can get tangled up.

mind you I am heating the black pipe 4 easier connection to the barbs. And then I'm heating it again gently so my black pipe takes the shape of the barbs and then double clamping you can't take it apart unless you cut it

I would get a long barbed (insert) adapter that can accept 3 stainless steel worm gear clamps. That would be especially for the connection below the pitless, because that one has the most tension.

It has been suggested that you heat the end of the poly in boiling water, rather than with a flame.

Another question I'm going to make a homemade apparatus to help pull the pump

There was at least one Youtube video where a homeowner built a structure from wood. They used an old tractor wheel as a big pulley, and pulled the pump using a rope pulled by a pickup truck. They had 3 people.

You really need at least 2 people, even if one is not doing the physical part.

 

[WorthFlorida]

With all that is going on, it’s a little difficult to know where you are. So here is my 2 cents worth

As said above going to 2 hp may not have been a good thing. All AC motors will always run more efficient at the highest voltage it was designed for. The lower the voltage the more current it will draw that can lead to more heat. I’m not sure the size wire to the well but it should be 10 gauge with a 25 or 30 amp breaker. The pump manual usually list the breaker requirement. You mentioned it but it seems you want to up the gauge from 14 which you must do. Wire too small will overheat causing a low voltage condition. Your old pump was small enough that the undersized wiring was just enough. Going to 2hp put it over the edge.

All motors must have a internal thermo switch to open the circuit should the motor over heat. When it cools it resets itself. I do not know if this is required on submersible pump motors.

Another is too much backpressure on the pump will slow down the rpms and cause it to draw more current, thus more heat.

Valveman is an expert in wells and pumps and I just learned from him what current readings in the middle could mean. Reach4 also gives good advice. I hope this made it a little clearer.

 

[Valveman]

Another is too much backpressure on the pump will slow down the rpms and cause it to draw more current, thus more heat.

Your 2 cents is very intuitive, except for this counter intuitive part. Most people think more backpressure would cause more load on the pump and make it draw more current, but just the opposite is true. Restricting the pumps flow with a valve or installing it deeper in the well will actually make it draw lower amps, not higher. This is the counter intuitive thing about pumps that makes people fall for the Variable Speed Pump hype. The incorrect thinking that a VFD saves energy and a valve waste energy caused people to spend 27 billion dollars on VFD's last year alone.

VFD's actually use more energy per gallon pumped, not less. Valves actually reduce the amp draw of a pump, just the opposite of increasing the amps. Until people figure out this counter intuitive thing about pumps, the VFD manufacturers won't say a word. They will gladly keep taking billions of your dollars and continue telling you the Emperor is wearing cloths.

Sorry to rant, but this is the one thing I have been fighting with pump companies about going on 26 years now. As long as people fail to understand it, manufacturers will continue reaping the benefits from our lack of understanding.

 

[Randy Sellers]

I think saying that you have pulled the pump yourself before, so no pictures needed.

You would like to replace the O-ring on the pitless. If you know the pitless brand, you could have one ready. If not, measure the o-ring for future getting of a new o-ring. When you put the pitless back, you want to lightly lube the o-ring with a silicone grease or silicone release compound. I would use my Molykote 111.


Based on the people in the know, I would not use a safety rope. It can get tangled up.



I would get a long barbed (insert) adapter that can accept 3 stainless steel worm gear clamps. That would be especially for the connection below the pitless, because that one has the most tension.

It has been suggested that you heat the end of the poly in boiling water, rather than with a flame.

There was at least one Youtube video where a homeowner built a structure from wood. They used an old tractor wheel as a big pulley, and pulled the pump using a rope pulled by a pickup truck. They had 3 people.

You really need at least 2 people, even if one is not doing the physical part.

Thank you sir I will not use rope because Im constantly getting it tangle. As suggested I will go what's up longer connections and 3 clamps. I'm not using Open Flame this time but a heat gun. I do not have a pitless adapter. It just goes straight to the top of the well with a well cap at the top. Thank you very much

 

[Randy Sellers]

With all that is going on, it’s a little difficult to know where you are. So here is my 2 cents worth

As said above going to 2 hp may not have been a good thing. All AC motors will always run more efficient at the highest voltage it was designed for. The lower the voltage the more current it will draw that can lead to more heat. I’m not sure the size wire to the well but it should be 10 gauge with a 25 or 30 amp breaker. The pump manual usually list the breaker requirement. You mentioned it but it seems you want to up the gauge from 14 which you must do. Wire too small will overheat causing a low voltage condition. Your old pump was small enough that the undersized wiring was just enough. Going to 2hp put it over the edge.

All motors must have a internal thermo switch to open the circuit should the motor over heat. When it cools it resets itself. I do not know if this is required on submersible pump motors.

Another is too much backpressure on the pump will slow down the rpms and cause it to draw more current, thus more heat.

Valveman is an expert in wells and pumps and I just learned from him what current readings in the middle could mean. Reach4 also gives good advice. I hope this made it a little clearer.

Yes sir I did go from a 20 amp double pole breaker to a 30 amp and I took my wire size from 14 to a 10 gauge. And yes I think I'm becoming Apprentice plumber

 

[Randy Sellers]

Sorry it's been so long since I've replied. I've got good news, I think. I believe I have a broken ground wire which actually was my fault my connection was good I soldered it.
But for some reason it became tight and pull apart oh, I think. I hope so. What I'm trying to say is it's either the pulled or I had done it pulling it up. Either way can I not check it with my electrical tester at that point without power on it. Last test as you recall I had 240 going down. Did not pull any amperage. If the ground was broken. The pump would not have run am I correct in thinking this way. How do I check using my meter with just the wires going to my pump can I check the ground wire and then one lead on the hot which will not be live because pump is halfway out. I hope that this is it thank you in advance

 

[Randy Sellers]

Couple of photos.
VIDEO to follow

 

[Randy Sellers]

So pulling my well today and about 40 foot. Found that my ground wire pulled apart
good news, I think. actually was my fault my connection was good I soldered it used water resistant connectors.
But for some reason. Wire it became tight and pulled apart , or I'd done it pulling it today and did not notice it until later. What I'm trying to say is I don't know. At this time I don't want to assume anything. Is there some way that I check it with my electrical tester without power on it. Last test as you recall I had 240 going down. And pump Did not pull any amperage. If the ground was broken. The pump would not have run, which explains why it didn't pull any amperage . Am I correct in thinking this way. can I check from where the ground wire pulled apart to well pump using voltmeter? I hope that this is it,thank you in advance.

OK I found that model number. It is a 2 wire 2HP, which is strange. But put 240 volts to the two hot wires and see if it is drawing 11.8 amps. No amps means the pump is not getting power. High amps means the pump is locked up or not running. Above 6-7 amps means the pump is running and the flow is plugged off somewhere. Less than 6-7 amps means it is not getting any water or the screen is clogged up.

 

[Valveman]

You can check with an ohm meter. There should be no continuity between either hot wire and the ground. Between the two hot wires it should read maybe 1.5 ohms.

 

[VAWellDriller]

It would run just fine with a broken ground wire.

 

[Randy Sellers]

You can check with an ohm meter. There should be no continuity between either hot wire and the ground. Between the two hot wires it should read maybe 1.5 ohms.

Thank you I will go check it right now get back with you in a few. I will be sending if possible fuel gift cards for a steak. Your advice is priceless and much appreciated is your experienced opinion

 

[Randy Sellers]

It would run just fine with a broken ground wire.

No kidding it's a two wire single phase 2 horsepower motor so undoubtedly this is not my problem

 

[Randy Sellers]

You can check with an ohm meter. There should be no continuity between either hot wire and the ground. Between the two hot wires it should read maybe 1.5 ohms.

I hope I'm posting this in the right order so you can read it get your opinion. There's posts and a lot of valuable opinion. But here's my findings from last night on the ground wire being broken and it looks like I have possibly broken a mirror. Crossed a black cat walking underneath the ladder. I cannot catch a break to save my life. So now after a new pump and pipe everything work good except for blue air out every time. So after pulling it I found a crack in the check valve which was sucking air. So I remove that check now and I put it at the pressure tank. Which now I understand I don't need it there because it messes with my vacuum or something. However it did in eliminate blowing air in a violent way. Excellent water pressure for 3 days and then once again no water pressure I drains my pressure tank with the pump off I set my air pressure in the holding tank to 38 lb I have a 40 pound kick on. Turn everything build pressure to 60 lbs it was beautiful the pump kicked off exactly as it should have. I went into the house tired and dirty I'm a large man in a very small crawl space. The water pressure was better than I've ever had it in fact I bragged on it after right set down on the drain and cried like a little baby, just kidding I cried like a big baby sobbing and rejoicing with my awesome water pressure. I went to work bragged 2 everybody. I come home couldn't wait for another nice hot shower.WTF, walk in the door in my wife's said got no water pressure isn't it time you hired a real plumber she loves me, so I drain my tank and I check my bladder wants again. Guess what it was about 10 lb I brought it back to 38# turn everything on open the water valves up it went to 60 lb and cut off perfectly beautiful water pressure another beautiful shower the same thing the next night. I've had it I went under the house I tore out everything I built a small utility building on the back of my house reinstall everything so I could get my fat butt around a little bit easier. I went from a 20 gallon tank to a 6 6 gallon pressure tank after $400 on the tank alone. I don't get me that after all I needed a cycle flow valve but that will be another day. So now after Plumbing everything again and firing up my well obviously my other tank had a leak in it. that happened just after my pump went out just after I had to re pull to change check valves. I kicked on the pump it started to gurgle water up to my new holding tank and then blue a breaker. So after some research when I went from a one to two horsepower my 14 gauge wiring and 20 amp breaker wasn't handling it so I went to 10 gauge and a 30 amp breaker so this is it everything replaced flip the breaker and nothing. I've got 240-volt at the well casing amperage at all. So today I begin pulling my well, found that I had a broken ground I rejoice and repaired it and recheck my voltage and this is what I've got. at 1:30 in the morning with no shower and no toilet yeah, I know I'm whining a a lot but this has been going on since Thanksgiving Day just before dinner I hear dad the water's not working. my wife and I have never been more scared of water in our life. here's my findings for tonight
1. With 122v x 2=244v to pump and down casing.

2. Red 120v leg pulled 69.2 - 75 amps on start up yes 75 amps.

3. Black 120v leg pulled 1.2 - 1.5 amps on start up

4. I believe the amps alternated between legs not a 100% positive though.

5. With ground wire not connected, and 122v per leg 244v down casing to pump no amperage.

6. With ground connected, 122v per leg with 69-75 amps on one and 1.5-1.9 amps on other.

7. And while ground was connected approximately 45 sec. To a minute it blew the breaker. You could hear the pump running at casing, the ground wire got hot enough to smoke and start to melt plastic shield, just before breaker blew.

8. So, on last check, checked 3 times, had same results. I cut ground wire with wire cutters deliberately to see if pump would quit running (with no ground) and it sparked like a welder. Very loud and pump stopped. But I still had 240 volts going to pump with no amperage. At 1 a.m. pack it up for the night. The world has been pulled one third of the way with 2/3 still down the hole. So not sure what to expect but I'll keep pulling any ideas whatsoever I would be greatly appreciated. What I am going to do so if I don't quit chasing my tail with $1 bills is as my wife suggested. Kill myself that's right fill the bathtub full of water and drown myself in sorrow. I just don't have any water. At this point if my wife says when are you going to call a plumber I think I'm going to draw myself in the septic tank I'm trying to be a little comical that's how I deal with stress, failure throwing my money away and competing with a damn plumber. I've got three pipe wrenches and now I'm a master electrician. My wife and kids and I wait till about 2 a.m. sneak to the neighbors patio under the pale moonlight between the snow drifts use the neighbors water hose to take a shower. Can it get any better than this thank you in advance.