cdysthe
New Member
Hallelujah ...... It's a miracle.
Well, that's almost how I feel about it. I wonder when this scale build-up in the faucets will stop completely though. Maybe the ting will dissolve the pipes also?
Hydrocare HC38 Thoughts???
- Thread starter GMrules
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Well, that's almost how I feel about it. I wonder when this scale build-up in the faucets will stop completely though. Maybe the ting will dissolve the pipes also?
I would suggest anyone who wants information on alternative water treatment look at chem1.com.
Few to none have any 3rd party validation and product endorsement is not a valid claim for performance.
If it works for you, fine. I do see a minimal amount of efficacy with wave generator technology but they are no means a substitute for ion exchange. Even cation exchange does not completely eliminate dissolved solids nor should it but damage do to hard water is a problem that affects us all in the trades to a lessor or greater degree at some point.
Continued positive dialogue would really be a better approach here, eh?
I don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bath water. somehow at some time, someone with a strong background in electro- chemistry (?) is going to back a breakthrough....
Few to none have any 3rd party validation and product endorsement is not a valid claim for performance.
If it works for you, fine. I do see a minimal amount of efficacy with wave generator technology but they are no means a substitute for ion exchange. Even cation exchange does not completely eliminate dissolved solids nor should it but damage do to hard water is a problem that affects us all in the trades to a lessor or greater degree at some point.
Continued positive dialogue would really be a better approach here, eh?
I don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bath water. somehow at some time, someone with a strong background in electro- chemistry (?) is going to back a breakthrough....
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This is a topic that has been going on for YEARS.
At last count there has yet to be a test from the WQA on the Hydrocare HC38 type items.
There have been many a company come out with a unit like it over the years, how many of them are still around?
Now could it work? I think that it has , but it has been on large pipes, and with 100's of GPM Always flowing, never stopping.
The challenge for the average home owner is that while they might use 200+ gallons in a day, it is only for a total of about 90 minutes total.
If you look at the full 24 hour clock, there is about a 2 hour window in the morning that water is used but of that 2 hours most likely it is only about 30 minutes total. Then you have for the next say 9 hours that 0 is used, then for the next 3-4 hours again maybe about 45 total time of use. Then another 9 hours of 0... For some things to work right there has to be a constant flow, not the start and stop that the average house undergoes each and every day.
Just some of my thoughts on this and what I have seen in 20 years.
At last count there has yet to be a test from the WQA on the Hydrocare HC38 type items.
There have been many a company come out with a unit like it over the years, how many of them are still around?
Now could it work? I think that it has , but it has been on large pipes, and with 100's of GPM Always flowing, never stopping.
The challenge for the average home owner is that while they might use 200+ gallons in a day, it is only for a total of about 90 minutes total.
If you look at the full 24 hour clock, there is about a 2 hour window in the morning that water is used but of that 2 hours most likely it is only about 30 minutes total. Then you have for the next say 9 hours that 0 is used, then for the next 3-4 hours again maybe about 45 total time of use. Then another 9 hours of 0... For some things to work right there has to be a constant flow, not the start and stop that the average house undergoes each and every day.
Just some of my thoughts on this and what I have seen in 20 years.
This is a topic that has been going on for YEARS.
At last count there has yet to be a test from the WQA on the Hydrocare HC38 type items.
There have been many a company come out with a unit like it over the years, how many of them are still around?
Now could it work? I think that it has , but it has been on large pipes, and with 100's of GPM Always flowing, never stopping.
The challenge for the average home owner is that while they might use 200+ gallons in a day, it is only for a total of about 90 minutes total.
If you look at the full 24 hour clock, there is about a 2 hour window in the morning that water is used but of that 2 hours most likely it is only about 30 minutes total. Then you have for the next say 9 hours that 0 is used, then for the next 3-4 hours again maybe about 45 total time of use. Then another 9 hours of 0... For some things to work right there has to be a constant flow, not the start and stop that the average house undergoes each and every day.
Just some of my thoughts on this and what I have seen in 20 years.
At last count there has yet to be a test from the WQA on the Hydrocare HC38 type items.
There have been many a company come out with a unit like it over the years, how many of them are still around?
Now could it work? I think that it has , but it has been on large pipes, and with 100's of GPM Always flowing, never stopping.
The challenge for the average home owner is that while they might use 200+ gallons in a day, it is only for a total of about 90 minutes total.
If you look at the full 24 hour clock, there is about a 2 hour window in the morning that water is used but of that 2 hours most likely it is only about 30 minutes total. Then you have for the next say 9 hours that 0 is used, then for the next 3-4 hours again maybe about 45 total time of use. Then another 9 hours of 0... For some things to work right there has to be a constant flow, not the start and stop that the average house undergoes each and every day.
Just some of my thoughts on this and what I have seen in 20 years.
cdysthe
New Member
My thoughts
I'm not an expert plumber or even DIY'er, so maybe I should not be posting here at all? But I like the ongoing discussion in this forum, so I'm doing it anyway. I work for a computer software company spending a lot of time on-line. Some of that time I've spent on looking for information around this mystery unit we have mounted on a pipe loop in the garage. As I've said before the reason I ended up with the HC-38 is that my wife likes to believe in such things. With "such things" I mean simple solutions to complex problems. She will not accept that if it seems too good to be true it most likely is. When I say that she says: You've said I am too good to be true". She's right in that case, she is! However, sometimes she is right and sometimes she just isn't. I can see that. But I keep my trap shut to not have to sleep on the couch. In this case with the HC-38 I am truly confused and baffled.
In western medicine there are several examples of widely use medications where science only knows how they work, not why they work. No laws of biology, chemistry or physics can explain the effect. One prominent example is beta blockers. We know the result of taking them, what happens and what they do. One thing they do is lowering the heart rate and blood pressure. But we do not know exactly why it happens. Isn't it possible that this water treatment debate has an element of the same thing? We can see that something has a certain effect on water and what's in water, but we do not know why? We try to come up with explanations but they are lacking since there's a black hole in our knowledge. I know that the chemistry and physics around water is pretty well known and explored while the human body in many ways still is a mystery to us. Still, wouldn't it be possible that there are a few things we didn't know, that we haven't even thought of yet, and that one of those things will at some point explain why units like the HydroCare one works?
To go back to the beta blocker analogy. I have taken those at one point. And yes, they had the wanted effect, but they also had a lot of side effect, not all wanted. In my case with the HC-38 I have the problem that my faucets gets clogged up with scale. When I turn the unit off it stops after just a few hours, and after a day the water feels icky when I wash my hair with it in the shower. I was allowed to turn it off for a week. My wife said: "If that's going to make you feel better about it, do it!". Is all this scale in the water a wanted effect, or a side effect? If it means my pipes are being "cleaned" it must be good. If it means the unit creates this stuff from what's dissolved in the water and stuck in the pipes it's not good. I don't know yet. Actually I won't know until the pipes are free of scale, if that ever happens.
I am still a skeptic even if I see that it does something which is spewing out old deposits from the pipes, and the water feels good. Personally my main question is: If this unit doesn't use magnetism but rather radio waves, why does it have to be mounted on the pipe itself? No conductive material touches the pipe as far as I can see, and I was told that I could mount it on PVC pipe also. I was also told that "it doesn't matter where on the pipe you mount it since it will cover the pipes in the whole house anyway". But I do not see the reason why it needs to be on the pipes at all if we are talking radio waves. Couldn't it just sit somewhere in the house close to a water pipe and send out its waves?
I'm not an expert plumber or even DIY'er, so maybe I should not be posting here at all? But I like the ongoing discussion in this forum, so I'm doing it anyway. I work for a computer software company spending a lot of time on-line. Some of that time I've spent on looking for information around this mystery unit we have mounted on a pipe loop in the garage. As I've said before the reason I ended up with the HC-38 is that my wife likes to believe in such things. With "such things" I mean simple solutions to complex problems. She will not accept that if it seems too good to be true it most likely is. When I say that she says: You've said I am too good to be true". She's right in that case, she is! However, sometimes she is right and sometimes she just isn't. I can see that. But I keep my trap shut to not have to sleep on the couch. In this case with the HC-38 I am truly confused and baffled.
In western medicine there are several examples of widely use medications where science only knows how they work, not why they work. No laws of biology, chemistry or physics can explain the effect. One prominent example is beta blockers. We know the result of taking them, what happens and what they do. One thing they do is lowering the heart rate and blood pressure. But we do not know exactly why it happens. Isn't it possible that this water treatment debate has an element of the same thing? We can see that something has a certain effect on water and what's in water, but we do not know why? We try to come up with explanations but they are lacking since there's a black hole in our knowledge. I know that the chemistry and physics around water is pretty well known and explored while the human body in many ways still is a mystery to us. Still, wouldn't it be possible that there are a few things we didn't know, that we haven't even thought of yet, and that one of those things will at some point explain why units like the HydroCare one works?
To go back to the beta blocker analogy. I have taken those at one point. And yes, they had the wanted effect, but they also had a lot of side effect, not all wanted. In my case with the HC-38 I have the problem that my faucets gets clogged up with scale. When I turn the unit off it stops after just a few hours, and after a day the water feels icky when I wash my hair with it in the shower. I was allowed to turn it off for a week. My wife said: "If that's going to make you feel better about it, do it!". Is all this scale in the water a wanted effect, or a side effect? If it means my pipes are being "cleaned" it must be good. If it means the unit creates this stuff from what's dissolved in the water and stuck in the pipes it's not good. I don't know yet. Actually I won't know until the pipes are free of scale, if that ever happens.
I am still a skeptic even if I see that it does something which is spewing out old deposits from the pipes, and the water feels good. Personally my main question is: If this unit doesn't use magnetism but rather radio waves, why does it have to be mounted on the pipe itself? No conductive material touches the pipe as far as I can see, and I was told that I could mount it on PVC pipe also. I was also told that "it doesn't matter where on the pipe you mount it since it will cover the pipes in the whole house anyway". But I do not see the reason why it needs to be on the pipes at all if we are talking radio waves. Couldn't it just sit somewhere in the house close to a water pipe and send out its waves?
cdysthe
New Member
Thanks. I've read that site several times. What makes it more credible than others? That they say that they represent science and claiming the the other side is pseudo? It can't be that simple. As I said, I do not know what to believe, but I am not removing something that works regardless of me believing it or not. That would in my opinion be stupid of me. So let me put it this way: I will let it do it's thing while I try to find out how it does it.
Gary Slusser
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IMO I wouldn't care how it works. So far no one can prove how physical water treatment (PWT) works. I didn't know how planes flew until I became a pilot and they taught me the 'theory of flight', I just knew they flew because I could see planes flying. I've seen some PWT "work" although most doesn't.
I drove all kinds of motorized vehicles long before I knew how internal combustion engines work. Only the nay sayers go on about how PWT doesn't work, no thrid party certification etc. etc.. If it works for your water and the improvement is satisfactory, enjoy.
I drove all kinds of motorized vehicles long before I knew how internal combustion engines work. Only the nay sayers go on about how PWT doesn't work, no thrid party certification etc. etc.. If it works for your water and the improvement is satisfactory, enjoy.
they use to think the world was flat also.
No, there is no third party confirmation whatsoever, however, there are numerous scientists that will attest to the fact that the claims made by these companies violate the laws of physics. Now I know that new things are being discovered all the time but as far as I know, nobody has come up with a way around the laws of physics. It is well documented that in order for any of these things to work, the power consumption necessary would be enormous and way beyond the 200 amps delivered to most homes.
BTW, how come you are not selling any of those products?
No, there is no third party confirmation whatsoever, however, there are numerous scientists that will attest to the fact that the claims made by these companies violate the laws of physics. Now I know that new things are being discovered all the time but as far as I know, nobody has come up with a way around the laws of physics. It is well documented that in order for any of these things to work, the power consumption necessary would be enormous and way beyond the 200 amps delivered to most homes.
BTW, how come you are not selling any of those products?
cdysthe
New Member
The HC-38, which presumably is not a magnetic device, is the only such device I am discussing here since it's the only one I have ever owned. It's not the HydroCare people who convinced me to get one, and i's because it has a one year return, not questions asked, warrantly attached to the purchase I accepted getting one. The year is almost up, but I can't see why I should send it back. It simply works for me, right here on my water supply.
The first people who claimed the earth was round went to jail or worse. Also, quantum physics have stirred up and questioned many of the older laws of physics the last fifty years or so. I am not a scientist, and I do not claim I know how this thing works. I'm not sure anyone does. But even if the HydroCare people told me "it works by having divine energy channeled from heaven down into your water" I would say "sure, whatever" and continue to enjoy it's beneficial effects on my water.
Why I am not selling it? Why would I? I have a job. In fact, most of the things I own I do not sell
Also, personally I would have a problem selling something I do not know how works. But that's me. I once purchased this sun powered ionizer floating thingy for my pool. That one did nothing but float on top of a newly created pool of green algae. I sent it back. The HC-38 works for me though, so what am a poor sucker to do? I don't know how to put this delicately and I may be off base here, but I have seen this same thing done on many many other diy forums. You only joined a couple days ago and have only posted on this thread. Like all the others that support this product, you can't really say if it works or not but you sort of think it does and yadda yadda the upshot being it is a good product. Problem is that the guys that sell these things need to advertise and they advertise by upping the google hit list, so they perpetuate these threads as long as possible too that end. Now maybe you are on the up and up, I really don't know and the last thing I want to do is re-post the last 11 pages, so for anyone wishing to continue with this mess I suggest reading through it all from page one because I doubt anything new and earth shattering is going to emerge.
cdysthe
New Member
Ok, so I now understand what you are getting at. It may well be true that those people do that, but I came across this forum while I was searching for information on the device. I read the whole thread and wanted to put my 2c in. I can PM you my real information so you can check me out. I am not associated with anyone who sell this product at all. I purchased it from a company online, but I am not going to put the name here in case that will be interpreted as advertising!
Gary Slusser
That's all folks!
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Peter, it looks as if you like to beat dead horses or you'd give up on beating this one and then complaining about it beating it.
James Percarpio
New Member
Continued Tests of HC44
That was my conlusion after about 4 weeks using the unit. What I decided to do since then in order to provide myself with a more objective point of reference was the following:
- On my glassware, I cleaned up the scale on the bottom of some of the glasses; on the others I etched a straight line on the bottom of the glass through the center of the existing scale build up.
- Since I did not see significant improvement on the scale build up on my shower head (which was over two years worth) I decided to clean the scale off and see if new scale would form.
After about 4 weeks the results are as follows:
- On the bottom of the glasses coming out of the dishwasher there is occasional "spotting" that does wipe off
- Thus far the shower head is clean
I'll continue to provide more updates.
That was my conlusion after about 4 weeks using the unit. What I decided to do since then in order to provide myself with a more objective point of reference was the following:
- On my glassware, I cleaned up the scale on the bottom of some of the glasses; on the others I etched a straight line on the bottom of the glass through the center of the existing scale build up.
- Since I did not see significant improvement on the scale build up on my shower head (which was over two years worth) I decided to clean the scale off and see if new scale would form.
After about 4 weeks the results are as follows:
- On the bottom of the glasses coming out of the dishwasher there is occasional "spotting" that does wipe off
- Thus far the shower head is clean
I'll continue to provide more updates.
James Percarpio
New Member
Laws of Physics
Hello Peter. This is a general question based on this comment as well as the website you reference. I'm somewhat confused. If I understand you correctly your claim (stance) is that electronic "water softening" devices don't work, period. But the author of that site makes the following comment (emphasis added):
So, does MWT work? No clear answer!
For some users, MWT seems to be effective in controlling scale deposition; there are too many favorable anecdotal reports to dismiss it entirely. Looking at the carefully done studies on actual installations, the results are mixed. This suggests that the conditions under which MWT is effective are dependent on factors that are not well understood. Scientific studies on model systems suggest that magnetic fields can have subtle effects on water[⇒] and can affect carbonate precipitation[⇒], even though H2O molecules are not paramagnetic. Some studies have shown that the presence of certain substances in the water can affect scale precipitation; these include iron ions, phosphates, silica[⇒], and oxygen.
Still, there is no scientific consensus about the mechanism of how MWT might work. This is not surprising; the entire process by which ions form precipitation nuclei is poorly understood. "Bare" ions do not exist in solution, but are protected by a hydration shell of loosely-attached water molecules and surrounded by an electric double layer of counter-ions. They do not simply come together to form precipitates. My best guess, based on the most recent literature, is that applied magnetic and electric fields might distort the double-layer in such a way as to promote nuclei formation, particularly if certain other ions or dissolved subtances are present.
In other words the author is not dismissing it entirely. Basically if I understand him correctly he is saying that although there is some evidence that MWT is effective...buyer beware.
Until someone finds a way around the laws of physics I am more than willing to throw the entire nursery out with the bath water
Hello Peter. This is a general question based on this comment as well as the website you reference. I'm somewhat confused. If I understand you correctly your claim (stance) is that electronic "water softening" devices don't work, period. But the author of that site makes the following comment (emphasis added):
So, does MWT work? No clear answer!
For some users, MWT seems to be effective in controlling scale deposition; there are too many favorable anecdotal reports to dismiss it entirely. Looking at the carefully done studies on actual installations, the results are mixed. This suggests that the conditions under which MWT is effective are dependent on factors that are not well understood. Scientific studies on model systems suggest that magnetic fields can have subtle effects on water[⇒] and can affect carbonate precipitation[⇒], even though H2O molecules are not paramagnetic. Some studies have shown that the presence of certain substances in the water can affect scale precipitation; these include iron ions, phosphates, silica[⇒], and oxygen.
Still, there is no scientific consensus about the mechanism of how MWT might work. This is not surprising; the entire process by which ions form precipitation nuclei is poorly understood. "Bare" ions do not exist in solution, but are protected by a hydration shell of loosely-attached water molecules and surrounded by an electric double layer of counter-ions. They do not simply come together to form precipitates. My best guess, based on the most recent literature, is that applied magnetic and electric fields might distort the double-layer in such a way as to promote nuclei formation, particularly if certain other ions or dissolved subtances are present.
In other words the author is not dismissing it entirely. Basically if I understand him correctly he is saying that although there is some evidence that MWT is effective...buyer beware.
wkb2texans
New Member
Amazing
I've read through nearly this entire thread ... since 2007 ... and haven't yet seen where anyone of you "experts" have tried these devices ... or even spoke with anyone who had (other than others who posted here.) Did I miss those postings? If so, I apologize. If not, read on.
I have no clue if these devices work or not ... I do know they're being advertised/sold widely (particulalry Easywater ... Beck and Hannity are wearing me out on that issue) ... and I do know there's much anectodal evidence that they do work. Of course, what we're missing is scientific proof. And I don't know if there is any. But I do know that there's also no scientific proof that these devices (Easywater and the Hydro, whatever it is) don't work.
So, I'd suggest that one of you experts in here buy one of these (they both have moneyback guarantees and solid BBB ratings, so you can give them back if you wish) ... and give them a personal test. I would think that after 2+ years of yapping about whether or not they work ... that someone might really want to see if they do or don't. Of course, that'd mean there'd be the possibility of some tails going between some of those expert legs, now wouldn't it?
Just my 2 cents ... as a first-time poster ... with no axe to grind/no dog in the fight.
I've read through nearly this entire thread ... since 2007 ... and haven't yet seen where anyone of you "experts" have tried these devices ... or even spoke with anyone who had (other than others who posted here.) Did I miss those postings? If so, I apologize. If not, read on.
I have no clue if these devices work or not ... I do know they're being advertised/sold widely (particulalry Easywater ... Beck and Hannity are wearing me out on that issue) ... and I do know there's much anectodal evidence that they do work. Of course, what we're missing is scientific proof. And I don't know if there is any. But I do know that there's also no scientific proof that these devices (Easywater and the Hydro, whatever it is) don't work.
So, I'd suggest that one of you experts in here buy one of these (they both have moneyback guarantees and solid BBB ratings, so you can give them back if you wish) ... and give them a personal test. I would think that after 2+ years of yapping about whether or not they work ... that someone might really want to see if they do or don't. Of course, that'd mean there'd be the possibility of some tails going between some of those expert legs, now wouldn't it?
Just my 2 cents ... as a first-time poster ... with no axe to grind/no dog in the fight.
cdysthe
New Member
Excellent suggestion! Especially since it's no cost involved for the expert choosing to do it other than being out $2-500 for a few months.
