Help! Bad check valve in deep well?

[Tbrooks26]

Hello. Would like to say thanks to this forum as it has been a great resource to me throught the years. Now to my problem.

Had a new well drilled last year, 525'.
Dropped the pump in myself, and has worked good until now. Power went out the other night, water was gone almost immediately, and lots of air when it came back on, I know what that means.

Some background for you guys, pump is a 2hp F&W, sitting at 480', static water level is like 5'. Installed a 8gpm flow reducer right by the well head, and no check valves after lots of reading on here. Have a 40/60 switch and 80 gallon pressure tank. 1" schd 120 pipe in the well also, with a torque arrestor.

So today I went out and played around, obviously lots of water back flowing into well, can here water moving in the lines, and see sediment stirring in my filter. Did some timing exercises.

Pressure tank isolated takes 1.75minutes from 60psi to 40 psi, draining through boiler valve.

Tank and well isolated from house takes 3.5 minutes, no drains open(so that's what the well is losing).

Tank and well isolated from house, it takes 2 minutes to pump up from 40 to 60psi.

Seems to me it must be the pump check valve, if I had a leak that big, it would take much longer to pump up. I do have a fair amount of sediment in my water, could be a contributor, but not even 2 years and I'm gonna have to pull it... that sucks! Last winter could take a shower when the power was out, and still have water!

So, I know it's not a proper solution, but I'm thinking about adding a check valve up top, I'm not pulling this thing and I hate to pay someone to do it, but eventually I know I will have to

 

[Reach4]

So, I know it's not a proper solution, but I'm thinking about adding a check valve up top, I'm not pulling this thing and I hate to pay someone to do it, but eventually I know I will have to

Reasonable workaround. You may get a bang when the pump comes on. But with that high static water level, it may not be that bad.

Now do you replace the pump if you have the pump pulled? I am confident that would be the recommendation. I am not a pro.

 

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[Tbrooks26]

I went to my local ace and picked up a swing and a spring check valve. Not sure which would be better, open to y'alls recommendation. I can put either in my pump house. Have to wait til tomorrow to install so I can pick up a brass nipple.

I know I've read on here only one check valve at the pump, but I'm hoping this will work, at least for awhile. We put $11k into this well 20 months ago, with me doing most the work, and I dont want to shell out a bunch more with christmas around the corner. Not sure if the pump company would even honor warranty since I didnt install more check valves, or if it's still under warranty, and I know they won't cover labor

 

[Reach4]

I went to my local ace and picked up a swing and a spring check valve. Not sure which would be better,

Spring.

 

[WY_WaterWellGuy]

New check valve on top is definitely a Bandaid fix but better than doing nothing. If I were you I would bite the bullet and pull the pump and slap a new check valve above the pump discharge before anymore permanent damage is done. As I’m sure you’re aware, the water draining back down the well can cause the pump to spin backwards and if the pump kicks on enough times while this is happening it can do irreversible damage to the pump shaft and pump/motor coupling. Having a high static level might lessen the effects of this and other problems associated with a failed check valve, but still something to keep in mind.

If you do decide to replace the check valve down the well, I would recommend shutting off power to the pump when you’re not using water in the house to prevent excessive cycling and more potential damage to the pump. But if you don’t plan on replacing the check valve you might as well leave the power on and just let it run until it burns up.

 

[LLigetfa]

...and lots of air when it came back on, I know what that means...

Lots of air suggests that all the water drained out of the drop pipe and air got sucked in. I am curious how the air got in the pipe. Perhaps from an open faucet? A leak in the pipe between the well and the house could be where the air gets in and might explain sediment as well. If you put a check valve topside and there is a leak, it will suck surface water in. If you can lift the pump off the pitless just high enough to add a temporary check valve just below the pitless, that should be less prone to water hammer. If the water then still runs back out of the tank, that would confirm a leak underground.

I don't know if an 8 GPM dole valve would be enough to prevent upthrust with a 2HP pump and a static level of just 5 feet. Maybe a good pump man knows. Do you see any remnants of the pump volutes in the filter?

 

[Valveman]

Restricting a 7 GPM, 2HP to 8 GPM will keep it from upthrusting. However, with a static level at 5', an 8 GPM Dole valve will hold back 281 PSI pressure. A Dole valve is only good to 125 PSI differential pressure. That much pressure will just eat the guts out of a Dole valve, but it is still probably the best you can do with that size pump. The 8 GPM Dole valve will also help the check valve last longer. Slamming a check valve closed and throwing it open from cycling at max pump flow is the main reason for check valve failure. Reducing the pumps max flow with the Dole valve will help.

 

[Tbrooks26]

Thanks for the responses. Wy guy, hadn't thought of the pump spinning backwards, hopefully the check valve is helping with that. So far everything seems fine with the check up top.

Lligetfa, my renter told me that his toilet runs a bit, plus in my house I used alot of old reclaimed valves (for looks) with new seals, but I had one that had a steady drip I just fixed yesterday as well, so air could definitely get in. Plus wife n kids n renter trying to use water that wasn't there, and flushing toilets, prob opened the way for air.

I think alot of the sediment is just from me not developing the well enough. I ran it for about 5 hours when I first dropped the pump, but I dont think that was enough. I was scared of running it dry, and didnt wanna babysit it. The driller said I only had 5gpm a minute coming in. Also I know we do have quite a bit of soft rock around here, could be a factor.

Btw, I'm no plumber. I know a decent amount, and have helped a lot of local people with plumbing problems and pump replacement. I always google and try to do everything the best I can. That's why I have the dole valve, because I tried to do my research.

That being said, I am planning on getting the pump pulled. I vowed when I put it in that I would not pull it out myself, just too much without a truck. I talked to my buddy who has the local plumbing store, and we both think getting a ball check to put on top of the pump would be best, I also figured I would have them put a screen on the pump. Any other ideas, or things i should do while in there? Valveman, you scare me with 281psi. Is there anything I should do differently there? I thought the dole valve was the right move to help prolong the pump life

 

[Valveman]

That pump is just way over-sized. It can pump from 900'+ and your water level is only 5'. For every foot of water standing in the well there is about 1.5 gallons of water stored. A house only uses about 300 gallons per day, so the pump could have been set at 200-300', and still had plenty of water. A 1HP, 10 GPM pump could be set at about 300', would deliver plenty of water, and would not have upthrust problems.

The guts of a Dole valve will get eaten out with the pressure you have. But it is the best you can do, just replace the Dole when it no longer maintains the 8 GPM. I don't like ball checks, but whatever you use needs to be rated for 300 PSI.

 

[Tbrooks26]

Thanks valveman. I do have a family of 5, plus essentially 2 campers with 1 renter each, and I have plans for another house on the property, but that is many years away. The well was also drilled during a wet season here, so the static level may not be the same. It doesn't have a pitless either, so checking the level is not so easy.

Any suggestions on monitoring the output? I do have a boiler valve right after the dole. Would it be feasible to open the boiler valve, then close a ball valve after the boiler valve to measure output? According to the manufacturer, 2 minutes to pump up my 80 gal pressure tank from 40 to 60 is already about 10gpm.

What would be your recommendation for the check valve? I've never even seen a ball check, me and my friend both thought that it would be much more infallible than a spring.

 

[WY_WaterWellGuy]

https://www.rcworst.com/Flomatic-80E-Enviro-4032E-Check-Valve-1-1/4-p1777.html

We use these (in brass) for all of our pumps on 1-2” drop pipe. Rated for 400 psi too so it can handle your 281 psi backpressure

 

[Valveman]

At 40/60 an 80 gallon pressure tank holds about 23 gallons of water. So with an 8 GPM Dole valve is should take almost 3 minutes to fill the tank.

WY mentioned one check valve. Here is another I like.

http://www.simmonsmfg.com/index.php/our-products/check-valves/check-valve-submersible/

 

[Tbrooks26]

Well, had well guys out today. The pulled the pump, put in check valve, and put it all back in. I pulled the upper check i put in while I was home at lunch. I got home from work, went to change the water filter, because it was overdue, was just waiting til after they came. Noticed immediately I could hear something. Pump was off, but water was moving. So timed cycles again, pump/tank isolated from house, 2 minutes to pump up 3.5 minutes til the pump kicked back on. Exact same as before. I can hear water flowing through the dole valve with the pump on or off, so its definitely going down the well, and with my timing, I still dont think I have a leak. Any ideas? Btw I just let them use their check valve, I didnt buy one.

 

[Tbrooks26]

Oh, and I called the well guy back, and he is as stumped as i am. He did say the pipe was completely empty, so its gotta be the check. He also said he noticed quite a bit of sand on the bell ends of the pipe, so I wonder if that is causing the checks to stick. Probably should had em put a screen on while they had it out. I was hoping most of the sand and sediment was from the drilling and that it would be gone by now

 

[LLigetfa]

He did say the pipe was completely empty, so its gotta be the check...

Since you had a topside check valve at the time, it removed the pressure from the bottom check valve. As I mentioned before, a check valve needs the pressure against it to hold the seal. That is why multiple check valves so often cause problems.

 

[Tbrooks26]

Since you had a topside check valve at the time, it removed the pressure from the bottom check valve. As I mentioned before, a check valve needs the pressure against it to hold the seal. That is why multiple check valves so often cause problems.

Isn't that why they put a spring in them?
So you think I could still have a leak somewhere? It's not underground because I can hear the water running backward through the dole valve at the well head.

So my water is draining down(leaking) at roughly 6gpm. 6gpm is no small leak. I would expect that I would have a catastrophic failure with a leak that large, or at least an issue unavoidably noticeable with the down pipe when it was pulled.

 

[Valveman]

Isn't that why they put a spring in them?

No. The spring is to pull the check valve closed as soon as the pump shuts off and before the flow reverses (helping to prevent water hammer). But the spring only has a pound or three of pressure where the water pushing back down has a ton of force keeping the check valve closed better. You know the leak is before the Dole valve somewhere, you just need to find it. But 6 GPM and no obvious leak makes me think even the new check valve has failed.

 

[LLigetfa]

I see Cary answered before I could.
The inline check valve has a spring so that it can work in a horizontal position. The check valve inside the pump might not have a spring.

 

[Reach4]

So today I went out and played around, obviously lots of water back flowing into well, can here water moving in the lines, and see sediment stirring in my filter. Did some timing exercises.

Do you have a sediment filter before your pressure switch and pressure tank? What if that clogs?

That being said, I am planning on getting the pump pulled. I vowed when I put it in that I would not pull it out myself, just too much without a truck. I talked to my buddy who has the local plumbing store, and we both think getting a ball check to put on top of the pump would be best, I also figured I would have them put a screen on the pump.

Put on either a flow inducer sleeve or a Lakos SUB-K. Having a longer flow inducer sleeve extending below the pump will help keep sand out. The SUB-K costs much more, but is even more effective at excluding sand.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/check-valve.70987/#post-525276

 

[Tbrooks26]

Do you have a sediment filter before your pressure switch and pressure tank? What if that clogs?

I hadn't considered that. I was thinking it would help keep the sediment out of the pressure tank. The way my pumphouse is configured, I'd have to have 2 and alot more pipe to put it after the tank. I have 2 lines leaving the pumphouse on opposite sides. Definitely something I need to consider though.

Put on either a flow inducer sleeve or a Lakos SUB-K. Having a longer flow inducer sleeve extending below the pump will help keep sand out. The SUB-K costs much more, but is even more effective at excluding sand.

I'll look into that. I assume they are same as a screen. I have been considering one already. Pump is 45 feet from the bottom, so that's not an issue. Sand must be coming from above, dont think it could be leftover from drilling, but I guess it's a possibility.

Looks like I have a lot of work to do and money to come up with. Also if change to a pitless, does that mean I can get the well head below ground, and not have it sticking up in the middle of the yard? Just something else I've been considering, if I have to have it pulled again. Never seen one before, so I dont know exactly how they work, other than diagrams I've seen online.