Dehumidifier in basement

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Chad schreiber

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Hi all, first post but long time lurker. I currently have a roughly 32'x20' almost finished room in my basement. I've been using an Aprilaire 1710 unit for humidity control with great results. Well the time has come to completely finish the room and I'm unsure where to locate the dehumidifier. We would also like to install a mini split ac system in this space before next summer. I would like to put the dehumidifier in the unfinished room but am concerned about how it will do controlling the finished side(a moot point if AC installed?).I've attached a rough sketch of the basement layout. The crawl space has a foundation fan running off a humidistat and has about 4' high ceilings. Thanks for any help
 

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Dana

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If the spaces are all interconnected and not doored-off, it really doesn't much matter where you put the dehumidifier. Air is extremely water-vapor permeable, it doesn't take a large amount of air exchange between rooms for the humidity to track pretty well (unless there is a large humidity source- like a shower running 24/7) a door-sized or bigger opening has sufficient cross section for the water vapor to diffuse, even if there isn't a huge convection force moving the air.

If the unfinished space has no doorways to the finished space, a dehumidifier in the crawl can still dry the finished space, assuming there are no vapor barriers in the partition walls, and there aren't large sources of humidity in the finished space. A coat of standard latex paint on wallboard runs 3-5 perms, which is semi-permeable to water vapor, even though there is no air-exchange.

Where is the foundation fan located, and where is it moving air from & to?

If the crawl space has outdoor inlet vents, in a PA the outdoor air is pretty dry in mid-winter, but the dew point is above the deep subsoil temperature for half the year. Vents to the outdoors will usually be letting more humidity in than it is purging. Installing a ground vapor barrier (EPDM or 10-mil polyethylene) to limit ground moisture and radon penetration, then air-sealing & insulating the exterior walls generally works better for humidity control and an energy use basis than ventilating the crawlspace with outdoor air.

With a sealed-insulated crawlspace, ventilating the crawlspace at a very low rate with air from the fully conditioned space will guarantee that the humidity levels track, guaranteeing that a dehumidifier in the crawlspace will also control humidity in the fully conditioned space. A Panasonic WhisperGreen FV-05-11VK1 is a good choice for this purpose. At 50cfm it only draws 3 watts. If mounted in the ceiling over the bar it would move air into the unfinished entry space, and through the grille-opening into the crawlspace, and back in through the closet grille at the other end of the house. It doesn't take much of a door cut or grille opening to move 50-100 cfm of air without much impedance, but pay attention to those details.

You could just punt, put the dehumidifier in the crawlspace and track the humidity in the finished space. But it's still worth converting the crawlspace into a sealed insulated space. There are good-better-best ways of dealing with that, and done wrong it can create a mold farm. Doing it well doesn't necessarily end up being more expensive than doing it badly too, but the details are somewhat climate dependent. Newport is in climate zone 5A, and would need the thermal performance equivalent of a continuous R15 to meet code minimums, which could be 4" of rigid EPS foam or 3" of rigid polyisocyanurate. The same performance level can be met with R20 fiberglass in 2x6 framing, but that's a mold farm in the making. In zone 5A an inch of polyisocyanurate between R15 in 2x4 framing and the foundation gets you to code-minimum performance without high mold risk. There's more to it than that, as well as other methods, but I won't go into detail unless you're interested in going that route.
 

Chad schreiber

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Dana, thanks for all the info! First, there is a door between the two rooms but there is no insulation barrier of any sorts in a the wall. Just log siding installed on the finished side and OSB on the unfinished side. The crawl space has two vents to the outside. One is sealed off and the other has the fan in it. The fan draws from the crawl space/ basement area and exhausts to the outside. The crawl space has thick polystyrene on the walls with a vapor barrier under the poured concrete floor(maybe not considered a crawl space but a short basement?)

I'm considering setting the unit in the unfinished area near the crawl space opening and building a plenum of sorts for the intake. Then installing a large "grill" in the wall between the two areas. I would then connect the plenum to the grill so the unit draws air from
The finished area and exhausts the hot air into the unfinished area and crawl space. There should be no problem with air exchange between the two areas. Does this sound like a possible good idea? Would it be better to not connect the grill to the unit? Is there an even better idea? Thanks in advance.
 

Dana

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Chad schreiber said:
Dana, thanks for all the info! First, there is a door between the two rooms but there is no insulation barrier of any sorts in a the wall. Just log siding installed on the finished side and OSB on the unfinished side. The crawl space has two vents to the outside. One is sealed off and the other has the fan in it. The fan draws from the crawl space/ basement area and exhausts to the outside. The crawl space has thick polystyrene on the walls with a vapor barrier under the poured concrete floor(maybe not considered a crawl space but a short basement?)

I'm considering setting the unit in the unfinished area near the crawl space opening and building a plenum of sorts for the intake. Then installing a large "grill" in the wall between the two areas. I would then connect the plenum to the grill so the unit draws air from
The finished area and exhausts the hot air into the unfinished area and crawl space. There should be no problem with air exchange between the two areas. Does this sound like a possible good idea? Would it be better to not connect the grill to the unit? Is there an even better idea? Thanks in advance.

OSB has variable vapor permeance that depends on the relative humidity of the proximate air, but is considerably more vapor tight than interior latex on wallboard (~3-5 perms) until it's humid enough to support mold (75% RH) . With the OSB there you can't count on vapor permeance alone for a dehumidifier in the unfinished section to dehumidify the main space. The dehumidifier in the unfinished room side keeps the air next to the OSB at a lower RH, which makes it more vapor-tight, preventing higher rates of vapor diffusion from the finished side of the room. See the green line (OSB) in this grahpic:

bsi-038-mind-the-gap-permeance-of-plywood-and-osb.jpg


But it doesn't take much ventilation flow to fix that- 50 cfm is probably going to be more than enough.

With the vapor barrier under the slab and polystyrene insulation on the crawlspace walls it's better to seal up and insulate the vents to the outdoors and getting rid of the exhaust fan. Just running the dehumidifier, ventilating the crawlspace at low cfm only with conditioned space air is enough. The way it is now, the exhaust fan depressurizes the basement, drawing it's makeup air from all air leaks in the basement and elsewhere, including any seams between the basement slab and foundation, which is a less than healthy path. (Between the ground moisture & radon and mold spores it's one of the worst sources of exhaust-fan make up air.) With a low-flow recirculation of conditioned air there is no air stagnation, humidity is controlled, and the basement is not depressurized in the process.

Building out a plenum over the dehumidifier isn't necessary, and will impede flow through the unit increasing it's power use more than just recirculating air through the crawlspace at 50-100 cfm with a WhisperGreen. Dehumidifiers require a large flow and lots of blower power to push air through the dehumidifier's coils. That flow rate is orders of magnitude higher than what's necessary for balancing the humidity from room to room, ergo the Panasonic Whispergreen solution. It's not super-cheap as bath-fans go (~$150-ish, sometimes less), but it's ventilation rate is adjustable, it uses very little power, and it's super-quiet.

How thick is the polystyrene on the crawlspace walls? If it's 4" thick you're already at code minimum, but if it's less there may be a case for adding more insulation at some point. Before adding any insulation it's important to do all the necessary air-sealing, lest you end up with wintertime condensation issues on the band joist or foundation sill, etc. Pressurizing the crawlspace with a window fan in one of the access grills (and temporarily covering the other) should be enough to be able to chase all of the air leaks down with a smoke-pencil and a can of foam &/or polyurethane caulk (not the cheap stuff) in a caulking gun.
 

Fitter30

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Box store dehumidifiers are rated at 95 % RH @80* Crawlspace or whole house that have a AHAM certification
rated at 60%RH @80*. With any as room temp drops performance drops
 
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