As plumbers, should we just walk away…?

[Daniel Collick]

A customer/contractor wants to convert a fiberglass tub to a walk-in shower, but the new shower needs a 2” drain. The customer/contractor is not committed to the work necessary for the plumber to provide a 2” drain, especially for a slab on grade installation, and insists on “telescoping” the 1-1/2” drain. I think most of us just want to do it right, so should we just protect ourselves and walk away?
Sure it’ll drain I just don’t want to put my name on work that I know is incorrect, especially when my employer will back my call.

 

[James Henry]

If it doesn't drain fast enough, it's your ass. I wouldn't do it.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[James Henry]

Never forget. Your reputation matters.

 

[Daniel Collick]

Never forget. Your reputation matters.

Indeed.
My reputation is why my employer targeted my skill set and I know they’d never ask me to pursue jobs where contractors/customers prohibited me from doing the job correctly. I had to just remind myself, doing a job correctly is NOT an up-sell. Only the “hacks” would ever try to make a contrary argument, and I’m not a hack.

 

[Breplum]

In these situations I sometimes go ahead and write up a long "hold harmless" disclosure and list every thing that is wrong with the improper, not-to-code installation and even the implications for the homeowner requirement to disclose upon sale of the dwelling. Get them to have the document notarized/signed.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I dont know what telescope is but you can convert a tub to a shower legaly in UPC with 1 1/2" What is the problem you are having?

 

[Jeff H Young]

check and see if c hapter 408.4 applys to washington ? 1 1/2" works weve all taken showers in a tub /shower LOL ! but we might be talking about something else

 

[Daniel Collick]

I dont know what telescope is but you can convert a tub to a shower legaly in UPC with 1 1/2" What is the problem you are having?

“telescoping” in this case indicates an increase in pipe size for nothing other than the appearance of a correct installation.
I see it more often in venting where vents that tie into each other should increase in size according to their vent fixture unit count, but it can be overlooked. Then, instead of cutting the fittings out and piping it correctly the tendency is to cut in a bell reducer before the vent penetrates the roof so the inspector is a little less likely to see it unless they’re being diligent.
For example, in this case the customer has an existing bathtub with a 1-1/2” drain that they want to remove and install a walk-in shower in its place. I’ve never been aware that it’s permissible to simply increase the tailpiece to 2” when converting to a shower. I only remember the UPC requiring that the drain, p-trap & tailpiece for a shower to be 2”.

 

[Daniel Collick]

check and see if c hapter 408.4 applys to washington ? 1 1/2" works weve all taken showers in a tub /shower LOL ! but we might be talking about something else

If I understand the intent it’s due to showers having a significantly lower flood rim, or the height of the threshold, compared to bathtubs which have a flood rim of anywhere from 17” to over 20” in height depending on the manufacturer. The lower threshold in a shower increases the possibility of flooding & or water damage if the drain backs up or doesn’t drain fast enough, especially with some showers that have multiple heads & body sprays these days.

 

[Jeff H Young]

If I understand the intent it’s due to showers having a significantly lower flood rim, or the height of the threshold, compared to bathtubs which have a flood rim of anywhere from 17” to over 20” in height depending on the manufacturer. The lower threshold in a shower increases the possibility of flooding & or water damage if the drain backs up or doesn’t drain fast enough, especially with some showers that have multiple heads & body sprays these days.

Read the code , I totaly aprove of it Im not going back through the technicaly it requires like AHJ aproval , Yada Yada and 2.5 gpm heads , If its more like a car wash than a normal shower than I wouldnt do it. Grasping at straws though any shower can overflow ive had 2 inch drains plugged but the owner diddnt flood the whole house out ? same with all the sinks in the house. if the job isnt for you dont do it no one can make you do a plumbing job even if its legal

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Jeff got it. Washington state amendment to the 2018 UPC.

408.4 Waste Outlet ... blah blah blah not less than 2 inches in diameter blah blah blah.

Exception: In a residential dwelling unit where a 2inch waste is not readily available and approval of the AHJ has been granted, the waste outlet, fixture tailpiece, trap and trap arm may be 1-1/2inch when an existing tub is being replaced by a shower sized per section 408.6(2). The exception only applies where one shower head rated at 2.5gpm is installed

https://sbcc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/2018 UPC Insert Pages_final.pdf

Page 28

And FWIW we do it all the time. Some times and places there just isn't ready access to a 2" drain. And especially now with showers limited to 1.75gpm in Wash... theres less chance of flooding.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I thought about it a bit and a curbless shower Would be a good concern though

 

[Sylvan]

"In these situations I sometimes go ahead and write up a long "hold harmless" disclosure and list every thing that is wrong with the improper, not-to-code installation and even the implications for the homeowner requirement to disclose upon sale of the dwelling. Get them to have the document notarized/signed."

Legally a person cannot give up their right to sue in most states.

Also as a "Master plumber" You are responsible to follow codes and knowing that you're doing in wrong is a great way to get a fine or worse license revoked.

Some jobs it is better to run away knowing that they can sue you when stoppages occur or are standing in a few inches of water.

 

[Jeff H Young]

"In these situations I sometimes go ahead and write up a long "hold harmless" disclosure and list every thing that is wrong with the improper, not-to-code installation and even the implications for the homeowner requirement to disclose upon sale of the dwelling. Get them to have the document notarized/signed."

Legally a person cannot give up their right to sue in most states.

Also as a "Master plumber" You are responsible to follow codes and knowing that you're doing in wrong is a great way to get a fine or worse license revoked.

Some jobs it is better to run away knowing that they can sue you when stoppages occur or are standing in a few inches of water.

Absolutely agree if we dont feel right about a job dont have to do it. Doing substandard work not to code might not apply to a waver , giving opinion that you dont recomend a certain type repair but will do it may or may not get you out of a jam.

 

[Reach4]

I think the cite in #11 blesses it, as long as the inspector approves in advance.

If a contractor asks you to do this, and you decline saying that it is not allowed, and the next plumber says it can be done legally, but adds a disclaimer that this is only allowed for rework, how will the contractor take that into account for the future?

There is a similar thing in laundry standpipes. 1-1/2 used to be enough for new work.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I think the cite in #11 blesses it, as long as the inspector approves in advance.

If a contractor asks you to do this, and you decline saying that it is not allowed, and the next plumber says it can be done legally, but adds a disclaimer that this is only allowed for rework, how will the contractor take that into account for the future?

There is a similar thing in laundry standpipes. 1-1/2 used to be enough for new work.

I think in this case depending on the conditions he could either be right or wrong. Under some conditions I aproove of 1 1/2 pipe to a shower but that dosent mean all cases Ill take my hards knocks for being right or wrong as long as I think its right

 

[John Gayewski]

This situation has been added to the upc. You can replace a tub with a shower in 1.5" pipe. The new shower just has to be within the size limits. If they are adding a much bigger shower with multiple heads, they need to change it. If they are replacing like with like (size of shower area) then 1.5" pipe is legal.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

This situation has been added to the upc. You can replace a tub with a shower in 1.5" pipe. The new shower just has to be within the size limits. If they are adding a much bigger shower with multiple heads, they need to change it. If they are replacing like with like (size of shower area) then 1.5" pipe is legal.

Is that in the 2022 UPC? There are a LOT of changes in that edition that I've seen. 5 toilets on 3" horizontal! I know that Kansas is using it already. Washington state is a lot slower to adopt new codes.

 

[Daniel Collick]

I thought about it a bit and a curbless shower Would be a good concern though

These are popular right now.

 

[John Gayewski]

Is that in the 2022 UPC? There are a LOT of changes in that edition that I've seen. 5 toilets on 3" horizontal! I know that Kansas is using it already. Washington state is a lot slower to adopt new codes.

Yes. Iowa adopted it.