New Basement Shower & Toilet Rough-Ins - sunken concrete, shower box, and offset toilet drain not to code?

[tmdp.house]

My wife and I bought a home that had a pre-existing basement bathroom with a toilet & and a shower on raised platforms -- the previous owners went the handyman route, and didn't break the slab.

I've been lurking on this forum, and took the oft-repeated advice to do it right, and break the slab. We hired a crew to break the slab, and replace the pedestals with proper shower and toilet rough-ins that are flush to the slab.

Despite wanting to do things the "right way", it seems like our luck with the contractor so far isn't great. I am no expert, but these issues feel like significant flaws to me, and I would very much appreciate the community's thoughts on how to best approach this with the contractor:

- The new shower rough-in box is 2.5" - 3" below the surface of our pre-existing slab; they didn't pour enough concrete. The box is that low as well; we need to chip out the box, built one out that's higher than grade, and then re-pour 2.5" - 3" worth of concrete to get back to grade. This is really surprising, as they said they're an all-in shop that handles concrete tear-out and pouring, and this is so much extra work that they're suggesting falls on us as homeowners.
- The toilet rough-in isn't centered in the toilet stall. There's 19" clearance on the left, and 10" clearance on the right. Everything I've read suggests that 15" on both sides is an absolute minimum. It looks like the plumber misjudged his bend in the sewer line and plowed forward with this offset drain. We were never consulted on this, this is what they presented to us as done after they poured concrete and it had been setting for a few hours.

Is it reasonable for us to be upset about this? I deeply respect the trades and want to give folks the benefit of the doubt but this doesn't feel right. Any thoughts on the calibre of the work, or input on how you would suggest we follow-up with the contractor?

 

[GReynolds929]

From what the pictures show that is unacceptable work and mistakes made by the contractor in my opinion. Unless the work was done this way due to changes specified by you the contractor should be fixing his own work and you should not be paying for his mistakes. The toilet rough would not pass code. Is this job being inspected?

 

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[Jeff H Young]

Something is very wrong . its so wrong Im very puzzled how it happened or I just dont get it . looks to me like your toilet must be centered on the drywall in the 29 inch space ( illegal but ive seen that) and also about 12 1/2" off the bare stud wall. Water is in the wrong wall as well.

 

[tmdp.house]

looks to me like your toilet must be [ . . . ] about 12 1/2" off the bare stud wall.

I just measured, we have 17.5" off the bare stud wall behind the toilet.

The water line is pre-existing as-is when we purchased the house, so that flaw at least is one this contractor has not caused.

The toilet rough-in, my non-expert read is that with the slab open, they had every opportunity to plan for proper-centered positioning, the j-man in this case failed to measure / plan properly and eyeballed the job (e.g. added the bend to the sewer line and glued it in place to accommodate the toilet rough-in without planning / mocking out the drain positioning to be dead certain first).

As I understand it, we live in a borough where residential work of this scale is considered "small" and not subject to permitting / inspection unless it hits a certain dollar value. This contractor seemed to have a great reputation and came recommended, and the previous installation was so bad we were confident things could only get better from here (the old owners had the toilet on a pedestal that drained directly into a repurposed cleanout that they had sealed in the wall under the stairs, inaccessible).

So far, it sounds like it may be reasonable for my wife and I to ask that the toilet drain be torn out and re-done before we pay for this job. The owner of the plumbing company will apparently visit some time next week to discuss; this job was completed by one of their employees and an apprentice, and not the owner himself.

I've attached a couple more photos from different angles as well, as I realize that I didn't do a great job of showing the toilet rough in relative to the shower stall, etc. Thank you very much for your feedback.

 

[GReynolds929]

Yeah that toilet rough needs redone. Even with a 14" rough toilet you'll still have 3" - 4" behind the tank to the open stud wall assuming that's the planned layout. The only thing I could think may have happened is the installer roughed in off the wall that the water supply is on and used a 10" rough dimension to allow the most space in front of the toilet, but that still doesn't make sense to me looking at the layout of the room. Since concrete needs to be removed to fix the mistakes I would recommend moving the toilet water line to the correct wall and position. The tub box should be to difficult to fix, but generally you want at least a 1' x 1' box.where the trap will be to allow for adjustments if necessary. The current box is to small and to far from the wall in my opinion. The drain is also usually on the same side as the valve, I don't see any water lines in the picture. You also need to make sure you get a right side drain tub. I see what looks like a 4" pipe stubbed up in the middle of the floor, is that for a floor drain?
This work seems to be done by someone very inexperienced, not a well respected experienced company, based on what I've seen I would be amazed if the plumbing was done by a licensed journeyman plumber. Hopefully the owner will agree with your concerns and remedy the situation appropriately.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Its so damn obviopus I can see that effed up work from my house! The Owner has 2 dumb asses out there not just one and they were so lame they actually poured concrete . It dosent take a licence journeyman to see this it takes a second week helper.
there is only one excuse all the walls are getting ripped out and the homeowner told them where to put the toilet waste then its your own fault

 

[tmdp.house]

You also need to make sure you get a right side drain tub.

Ahh yes good call, they said they had concerns about working around a sewer line Y that was directly below the shower stall, and suggested an offset kerdi linear drain (shower) to allow them to avoid the Y. I try to be flexible and this seemed reasonable enough to me without knowing the potential issues of having to further intervene with the Y.

I see what looks like a 4" pipe stubbed up in the middle of the floor, is that for a floor drain?

I've been told that's a backflow valve (well, beneath the cover); it apparently serves both the toilet rough-in, and also the shower drain box. I will attach more photos of the pipe layout before the concrete was poured.

It was one of two backflow valves they put in; they also put in a second serving a floor drain beyond the shower stall in the laundry room, and also a new washer drain.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Maybe your photos and post is hard to follow the picture holding tape measure is not a toilet rough in ? its getting a bit confusing

 

[tmdp.house]

the picture holding tape measure is not a toilet rough in?

Ahhh terribly sorry for any confusion, yes the photo holding the tape measure is absolutely supposed to be a toilet rough in

 

[Jeff H Young]

so the backwater valve is elsewhere ? yea gotta have toilet around 12 1/2" off back wall and 15 inches from finish side wall an alcove with under 30 inches isnt code it gets fudged sometimes but it gets pretty tight maybey concider turning those studs to gain 2 inches

 

[GReynolds929]

Ahh yes good call, they said they had concerns about working around a sewer line Y that was directly below the shower stall, and suggested an offset kerdi linear drain (shower) to allow them to avoid the Y. I try to be flexible and this seemed reasonable enough to me without knowing the potential issues of having to further intervene with the Y.


I've been told that's a backflow valve (well, beneath the cover); it apparently serves both the toilet rough-in, and also the shower drain box. I will attach more photos of the pipe layout before the concrete was poured.

It was one of two backflow valves they put in; they also put in a second serving a floor drain beyond the shower stall in the laundry room, and also a new washer drain.

View attachment 98154

OK, that makes more sense. I was assuming prefab acrylic type shower pan, if tile it can be wherever just needs to be properly sloped. Backwater valve is definitely a good thing to have.

 

[Jeff H Young]

looks like the toilet is about 10 inches off the side wall are you moving walls and forgot to mention that ? Did you have meeting with the plumber yet?

 

[tmdp.house]

Definitely not moving walls, not discussed also not an option due to where we need supports for stairs above.

Plumber owner just visited this morning. He stated that he will be viewing his employees photos of the toilet and sewer line as well to determine next steps. He said the toilet position may have been done due to code rules around “number of bends and distance of them in the sewer line”. As in, maybe the employee couldn’t swing out the sewer line further to better accommodate the toilet rough in?? I’ve been googling and haven’t yet found any indication of max bends or distance being a factor that could constrain this yet.

He said there may be two options on the table: dig up concrete and move sewer line and toilet rough in, or install offset flange to claim a few extra inches. He says he will be following up in a day or so.

 

[Jeff H Young]

So he didnt tell you any of this befor burying in concrete ? I wont argue that there can be physical limitations but Id have to tell you that befor burying in concrete and saying im all done see ya later. offset closet rings give you 1 1/2" . I understand you are in a whole differant country permits and codes lightly or never enforced perhaps. maybey you had discusion that it might look a little off (or way off) and you agreed so as to stay on budget

 

[tmdp.house]

To his credit, the owner did not shy from criticizing his employee’s work. He said that the toilet position should absolutely have been discussed and not just concreted in place like that. He confirmed that the position is indeed off from the usual 15”/15” and that even the flange won’t bring things into ideal territory. He owned the employee’s lack of communication, and also being able to provide that oversight himself. Very candid communication there, much appreciated.

He previously said that if the toilet rough could be moved to 15”/15”, it would be done at their cost. I suppose I am now waiting on how he reads things after consulting his employee’s photos:

- Maybe he decides that he can further maneuver the sewer line to make more space for the toilet rough. If so great. Problem solved.
- If not, harder to take the “impossibility” as an article of faith. Is it really not possible to swing out the sewer line further to make more of a pocket for the toilet drain? Maybe it’s a total length / slope issue he’s dealing with? If so, at that point the rationale for things drifts well outside of my expertise and I may not know whether or not it’s a legit constraint vs. a decision to spare lost hours and save costs. I will say; I know we are not dealing with an ideal slope scenario to start with, it’s an older house (70s) and the sewer line isn’t super deep below the slab to start with.