13.125" rough-in for Ultramax? & install Q's

[Warrigal]

First: thank you Terry and forum contributors for this amazing resource! I never thought I would spend days poring over a toilet forum, but I have and absorbing a fraction of the knowledge here has been so enlightening!

Second: We're remodeling the sole bathroom in our small mountain cabin on septic. My husband and I will be occupying the cabin 60% of the time. The bathroom is a small rectangle configuration, with the tub fitting legnthwise in the 60" wide space, with the toilet parallel to the tub and adjacent to the sink. Since 60" is the width of the bathroom, and I'm swapping a round bowl for an elongated, I'd like to maximize space in front of the toilet if possible. We measured the rough-in from drywall to bolts on the existing toilet to be 13 1/8."

I've narrowed my toilet choices down to the Eco Drake or the Eco Ultramax, elongated, regular height. I do like the skirt on the Aquia, but it sounds like my other two options might have a slight edge on flushing performance (please feel free to correct me). From scouring the threads on 13" rough-ins, it sounds like I could either buy a 12" toilet and expect a ~1.5-2" gap between the tank and the wall, OR possibly buy a 14" plus Unifit adapter and get a closer wall fit. Is one preferable to the other from a performance standpoint?

Some other considerations, in case they are relevant. We will pairing this with a washlet sooner than later (hopefully the lowest profile one we can find, like the S300E if we have enough amps - unless you can suggest something even lower?). We *might* also be adding wood paneling over the drywall during Phase 2 of the remodel (but would the toilet look awkwardly far from the wall in a 12" rough-in if we didn't end up doing this?).

Third & last: The cabin currently has no floors installed right now - only the naked concrete slab. We need to install the toilet and use it for about 2 months until the wood floors are ready to be installed - then we will be taking everything out (clawfoot tub, toilet, vanity etc) to lay down the wood floors, and reinstall the toilet on top of the floors. Are there any special steps we should take when installing it the first time to make sure that the drain or whatever else will be the right level when we install our 3/4" floorboards on the slab? And if we opt for the 12" rough-in on the Ultramax or Drake, is this something that could be installed by a DIY-er fairly easily? Totally subjective, I know, but I welcome all comments and information.

Thank you so much for reading through this post and for any wisdom you can share!

 

[Terry]

Thanks so much!
If you're installing the toilet before the flooring goes in, there is only so high the flange can be without being too high for the bowl. After the flooring is added, you can either double wax the seal, or pick up a Sioux Chief flange insert and raise the flange.
At 13.25" I wouldn't worry. 60" or 58" in the clear is plenty of room with the tub . As to Washlets, even the low powered ones like the C100 work fine
For skirted bowls with the good flush and rinse, you can also look at the Aimes and the Legato.

If you chose a Unifit installation, that adds more work for the new floor as it would need to be reinstalled at the new height.

TOTO SW2034#01 C100 WASHLET Electronic Bidet Toilet Seat, Elongated, Cotton White

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

I had a similar rough-in and a similar objective.
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/ind...baseboard-and-shoe-molding.58080/#post-428138 my unifit mod post
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/ind...nifit-or-stick-with-the-12.59681/#post-442544 picture with ruler.
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/ind...rance-with-14-unifit-and-offset-flange.66596/ has marked-up unifit photo.

 

[Mliu]

Why not continue to use the existing toilet until the flooring is ready to be installed in two months? Unless the porcelain of the existing toilet is broken, I can't understand the urgent need to replace the toilet before the new flooring is in.

 

[Warrigal]

Reach4 - thank you so much for those links! Very helpful to see the photos and read the detailed explanations - bookmarking these for the future.

If you're installing the toilet before the flooring goes in, there is only so high the flange can be without being too high for the bowl. After the flooring is added, you can either double wax the seal, or pick up a Sioux Chief flange insert and raise the flange.

Terry, thank you SO much for this information! Now I'm wondering: would it be better to add a temporary "floor" - i.e. some unglued 3/4" tiles or boards around the flange and under the toilet, so that we put it at the proper height to start with? Or would having an unstable surface under the toilet for 2 months be dangerous?

At 13.25" I wouldn't worry. 60" or 58" in the clear is plenty of room with the tub .[snip]
If you chose a Unifit installation, that adds more work for the new floor as it would need to be reinstalled at the new height.

Hmmm, really good point. I can get a really good deal locally on a 12" Drake or Ultramax. If I install initially on the concrete, is there still an option to add a Unifit adapter - perhaps employing the clever Reach4 method - after the floors are installed and move the toilet back towards the wall a bit?

As to Washlets, even the low powered ones like the C100 work fine

I would be all for the C100, but being new to the bidet seat world, I have had to cajole and persuade DH to even consider it, primarily with arguments about how much better it will be for our septic system and how much I want it. But he really wants one that looks as much like a "normal" seat as possible, i.e., thinner/flatter. So hopefully the S300E or similar will work or he will have to get used to the idea of a less expensive bulkier one!

For skirted bowls with the good flush and rinse, you can also look at the Aimes and the Legato.

Thank you - I should have specified that by "regular height" I mean the shorter 14-15" bowl height. I'm short and my husband is not super tall, and we really do not like the higher toilets, so when I filter on Toto's website it definitely limits the options to the Drake, Aquia, Ultramax and Ultimate -though these are not bad options to have!

 

[Reach4]

I can get a really good deal locally on a 12" Drake or Ultramax. If I install initially on the concrete, is there still an option to add a Unifit adapter

Those do not use Unifit. The new Aquia does.
https://www.totousa.com/filemanager_uploads/product_assets/SS-01318_CST446CEMG.pdf

 

[Warrigal]

Those do not use Unifit. The new Aquia does.
https://www.totousa.com/filemanager_uploads/product_assets/SS-01318_CST446CEMG.pdf

Ah, I totally missed that - thanks so much! Well, I think that settles it, then. I'll go for the deal on the Ultramax in exchange for a little gap, which may give me extra incentive to add the barnwood paneling later on.

 

[Mliu]

would it be better to add a temporary "floor" - i.e. some unglued 3/4" tiles or boards around the flange and under the toilet, so that we put it at the proper height to start with? Or would having an unstable surface under the toilet for 2 months be dangerous?

Do you already know the finished height of your future floor? If so, a piece of plywood thick enough to match your future finished floor height and at least 12" wider and 12" deeper than the base of your new toilet (minimum 6" extra all around the perimeter of the base) should provide enough stability. If there isn't 6" between the back of the base of the toilet and the wall behind, then just run the plywood up to the wall. I would put a 3" x 3" patch of flooring adhesive at each corner of the plywood to glue it to the concrete floor (do NOT use silicone!). When it comes time to install your new flooring, you should have no problem ripping up the plywood and scraping the glue off the concrete.

 

[Warrigal]

Do you already know the finished height of your future floor? If so, a piece of plywood thick enough to match your future finished floor height and at least 12" wider and 12" deeper than the base of your new toilet (minimum 6" extra all around the perimeter of the base) should provide enough stability. If there isn't 6" between the back of the base of the toilet and the wall behind, then just run the plywood up to the wall. I would put a 3" x 3" patch of flooring adhesive at each corner of the plywood to glue it to the concrete floor (do NOT use silicone!). When it comes time to install your new flooring, you should have no problem ripping up the plywood and scraping the glue off the concrete.

Mliu - thank you so much - that's genius! Yes, we know the exact height of our floors and are just waiting for them to be milled, so we should be able to put down the temporary plywood with no problem. Thank you!

 

[Reach4]

Ah, I totally missed that - thanks so much! Well, I think that settles it, then. I'll go for the deal on the Ultramax in exchange for a little gap, which may give me extra incentive to add the barnwood paneling later on.

https://www.totousa.com/filemanager_uploads/product_assets/SS-00206_MS854114E_G_MS853113E.pdf

Since you have the flooring to be installed in the future, you could consider moving the flange. It would involve busting up some concrete, and putting some concrete back.

When you set the toilet, there is a little adjustment ("cheating") possible. You would use 1/4 inch closet bolts, rather than 5/16. That gets you a small bit of extra adjustment. You may be able to slide the closet bolts some in the slots to minimize the gap.

 

[Warrigal]

https://www.totousa.com/filemanager_uploads/product_assets/SS-00206_MS854114E_G_MS853113E.pdf

Since you have the flooring to be installed in the future, you could consider moving the flange. It would involve busting up some concrete, and putting some concrete back.

When you set the toilet, there is a little adjustment ("cheating") possible. You would use 1/4 inch closet bolts, rather than 5/16. That gets you a small bit of extra adjustment. You may be able to slide the closet bolts some in the slots to minimize the gap.

Reach4 - that's a great idea too. We will already be busting up some concrete to relocate the kitchen sink drain. We will ask the plumber about moving the flange as well. Also good to know about the bolts if we end up not moving the flange - thank you!

 

[Mliu]

When you set the toilet, there is a little adjustment ("cheating") possible. You would use 1/4 inch closet bolts, rather than 5/16. That gets you a small bit of extra adjustment. You may be able to slide the closet bolts some in the slots to minimize the gap.

It seems to me that would only give you 1/32" (half the difference of the bolt diameters) of extra lateral movement at the toilet base, plus 1/32" of extra lateral movement at the flange, for a total lateral play of 1/16". So I can see that possibly being helpful if you're, say, trying to avoid a grout line. But 1/16" is not going to help her with her backset.

 

[Jadnashua]

The actual hole in the toilet and the slots in the flange (if you use the long slots, not the side slots to anchor the toilet) give you maybe 1/4-1/2" max slop when anchoring the toilet. Keep in mind, the minimum ID of the flange is 3" when using a typical flange, and the outlet of the typical toilet is a little over 2", so there's room to slide the toilet without creating an obstruction and the waste can still drop down without issues.

 

[Warrigal]

Why not continue to use the existing toilet until the flooring is ready to be installed in two months? Unless the porcelain of the existing toilet is broken, I can't understand the urgent need to replace the toilet before the new flooring is in.

Mliu - I missed this post earlier. We just acquired the cabin - previously it was bank owned and unoccupied (or squatter occupied) and the toilet, although it flushed during the inspection, looks like this:

I think - from googling - it could be cleaned up. And since it flushed, we think it works. WWTLD? (What Would Terry Love and everyone Do?) Get over the Ick factor, suck it up and clean it and use it for two months to avoid jacking around with a nice new Toto? Or go the plywood route and have to install-uninstall-reinstall the nice new Toto?

ETA: DH will be living there as soon as we have a toilet because he got a new job within commuting distance that starts in a couple weeks, and "glamping" in the new cabin - and working on it - is a better/cheaper option than renting somewhere else since it's remote.

 

[Jadnashua]

Some of the cleaners can do an amazing job on something like that. But, looking gross doesn't necessarily mean that it is unsafe or unsanitary. Some mineral deposits can make it look nasty.

I'd consider pouring a pint of vinegar in there and letting it sit overnight, then scrub. That will only work where the water level is. If that does work, there are stronger ones that can be used, but if you go forward with that, make sure to follow all of the precautions as it can burn and the fumes can be bad, too.

 

[Mliu]

WWTLD? (What Would Terry Love and everyone Do?)

Yeah, that's pretty grotty. I admit I'd have a hard time getting over the "ick" factor. So what I'd likely do is hire someone else to scrub it clean!

 

[Mliu]

I'd consider pouring a pint of vinegar in there and letting it sit overnight, then scrub. That will only work where the water level is.

Vinegar is a very weak acid and, as you said, that will only clean from the waterline down. This is how I'd tackle that monster (for less than $20):

Start by buying a 1-gallon jug of Klean-Strip "Green" Muriatic Acid from Home Depot. (This stuff is less nasty than muriatic acid for swimming pools.)

1. Remove the toilet seat & lid. Turn off the water to your toilet & flush the toilet. Then take a cheap plunger and plunge the toilet until you've emptied the bowl of as much water as possible.

2. Take a large nitrile rubber glove and place it into the trapway opening. Using an air compressor, gently inflate the glove into a balloon so that the trapway is sealed. Tie off the end of the glove. Take another glove and cut it lengthwise into long stripes. Tie the strips end-to-end to make a string. Tie one end to the balloon glove; tie the other end to one of the toilet seat holes. This is so the balloon glove doesn't get washed down into your septic tank later on. (Don't use a string, because some strings can't withstand acid.)

3. WEAR SPLASH-RESISTANT EYE PROTECTION GOOGLES, NEOPRENE GLOVES, and long pants and a long-sleeved shirt. Open any windows in the bathroom and/or turn on the fan.

4. Fill a 5-gallon plastic bucket with 3 gallons of water. Add half the jug of acid to the bucket. ALWAYS ADD ACID TO WATER, NEVER ADD WATER TO ACID. Stir gently with a long wood paint stirrer.

5. Slowly and carefully pour the acid mix into the bowl. You will want to fill the bowl until it's ~1/2" below the top of the rim. This will allow the acid to clean ALL the bowl and the nasty area under the rim. You may need to mix another batch of acid to completely fill the bowl. Use a ratio of 3 cups of acid to 1-gallon of water. ALWAYS ADD ACID TO WATER.

6. After the bowl is filled, Place a piece of scrap plywood over the top of the bowl as a cover. Put a warning sign on the plywood.

7. I'd let it sit overnight. You're going to toss the toilet in a couple of months anyway, so if it etches the surface a bit, who cares. Leave the window open and/or the fan on. Close the bathroom door. If you will be staying in the house, you might want to roll up a towel and place it along the bottom of the door so any fumes don't enter the rest of the house.

8. The next day, PUT ON YOUR PERSONAL PROTECTION GEAR (Step 3 above).

9. Carefully remove the plywood to inspect the toilet. The nasty deposits should all be gone.

10. When the bowl is clean, carefully pour baking soda into the bowl a little at a time. The baking soda will foam when it mixes with the water, so don't pour in too much at one time! Use your long wood stirring stick to gently stir the contents of the bowl. Keep adding baking soda until the mixture no longer fizzes. At that point, the acid is neutralized and is safe to be flushed.

11. Take an old wire coat hanger, cut it, and bend it into a long straight wire with a pointy end. Place the piece of plywood back over the bowl, but offest it so there's a tiny opening into the bowl on the far side away from you.

12. MAKE SURE YOU'RE STILL WEARING YOUR PROTECTION GEAR!

13. Standing on the side of the bowl opposite the opening, slide the coat hanger into the hole and down into the bowl and pop the balloon glove. The toilet will flush. Now you can pull out the popped glove using the lanyard you made in Step 2.

14. Turn the water to the toilet back on and flush the toilet.

15. Now you can use regular toilet cleaner and a scrub brush to remove any remaining loose scale or scum.

If you follow the above steps, this should be both effective and safe. But you assume all liability if you attempt this.

 

[Mliu]

The actual hole in the toilet and the slots in the flange (if you use the long slots, not the side slots to anchor the toilet) give you maybe 1/4-1/2" max slop when anchoring the toilet.

Yes, but the slop from the oversized holes is the same whether you use 5/16" bolts or 1/4" bolts. So changing the bolts to 1/4" will only give you an extra 1/16" of adjustment versus what you can do with the 5/16" bolts. To me, that's not worth using the smaller bolts.

 

[Warrigal]

Mliu - thank you SO MUCH for those detailed instructions! If we attempt to clean it, we will do so at our own risk and I will be sure to post photos.