why use purple primer on sche 40

[kskier]

I am putting in some new 3" sche 40 drain pipe for a toilet, and I was told to use the purple primer before I glue the pieces together. Why do I need to do this, and do I apply the primer to both joints?

[Terry]

It's plumbing code.

The primer cleans and softens the plastic.
Without the primer, the joint can fail.

The outside of the pipe, and the inside of the fitting gets primer and glue.
You assemble with a slight twist.

[jadnashua]

Yes...did you read the instructions?

The primer cleans crud off the pipe and removes the finish gloss, then the glue can soften the plastic. The pipes are then actually welded together by the now softened plastic. WHen the solvent evaporates, it becomes essentially one piece. No primer, and it may not make a good joint. Plus, some inspectors will fail an installation if they can't see the primer. There is a clear primer, but as noted, it may not be legal where you are.

[Gary Swart]

It has been my understanding (and this may or may not be accurate) that primer is required to remove an outer coating and to clean the pipe. I was made purple so that inspectors could easily see that primer was used. It is required on both the pipe ends and the interior of the fittings. Some of this may be folklore, I would expect some of the old veterans to correct me.

[kingsotall]

I was made purple so that inspectors could easily see that primer was used.

:D

By chance, is this you, Gary¿

http://www.theocinsider.com/images/backstage/OCin-jokes/reference_grimace.jpg

I am only kidding... ;)

[Gary Swart]

It almost could be me! I was working on my sprinkler system one time and was on my belly with my head down in the trench when I knock over the open can of primer. I had a purple head and neck for awhile. Damn, it take a long time for that stuff to wear off.:D

[Waterwelldude]

If you are not in the city or the county/code does not require it.
Don't use it. But only if you are not required to use it.

I know what the can says, but it will not let the pipe bond that good.
The cleaner does take off the pvc coating, but puts one of it's own on the pipe.
The two pipes will not bond that good if cleaner is used.

It is better to sand the ends to be glued.
Use 220 grit to sand the pipe with. Sand it only good enough to remove the shinny part or just enough to remove the glaze.

Cleaner is the biggest joke in the plumbing, when it comes to gluing pvc.


Travis

[Redwood]

If you are not in the city or the county/code does not require it.
Don't use it. But only if you are not required to use it.

I know what the can says, but it will not let the pipe bond that good.
The cleaner does take off the pvc coating, but puts one of it's own on the pipe.
The two pipes will not bond that good if cleaner is used.

It is better to sand the ends to be glued.
Use 220 grit to sand the pipe with. Sand it only good enough to remove the shinny part or just enough to remove the glaze.

Cleaner is the biggest joke in the plumbing, when it comes to gluing pvc.


Travis

I'll just have to disagree with you...
It is a 2 step process...
Leave out one of the steps and failure of the joint is highly possible.

[SewerRatz]

If you are not in the city or the county/code does not require it.
Don't use it. But only if you are not required to use it.

I know what the can says, but it will not let the pipe bond that good.
The cleaner does take off the pvc coating, but puts one of it's own on the pipe.
The two pipes will not bond that good if cleaner is used.

It is better to sand the ends to be glued.
Use 220 grit to sand the pipe with. Sand it only good enough to remove the shinny part or just enough to remove the glaze.

Cleaner is the biggest joke in the plumbing, when it comes to gluing pvc.


Travis

I have to disagree with you as well. I never had a properly primed and glued joint fail. It is a two step process. I just recently installed a new sump pump lid and a glue check valve. I forgot to install the lid before I glued the valve on, not even 45 seconds later I realized my mistake and tried to remove the glued and primed check valve from the pipe with no success. I ended up unscrewing the pipe from the pump and feeding it through the lid then back into the pump.

[Waterwelldude]

PVC glue with cleaner. This has always been a good argument at lunch time...lol

I will not use cleaner when I am gluing pvc.
The cleaner is supposed to take off the wax layer.. It might, but it leaves a thin film of the cleaner itself. Any time a pipe has cleaner on it, it will not let the glue bond with the pvc.

A simple test. Take 2 pieces of pipe and a coupling. One one piece use cleaner, and the other, no cleaner. Glue them together with the coupling.
Let it sit over night if you want. Put the pipe in a vice with the coupling free.
Use a pipe wrench on the opposite pipe, and turn. The side with the cleaner will be the one that turn. Every time.

I have had this discussion with lots of plumbers. In some cases, it is in there rules they have to use cleaner to be up to code.

When we have a service call, and we see they used cleaner. 9 out of 10 times, that piece of pipe will have some kind of tie or restraint on it.

I myself will not use cleaner.


Travis

[Redwood]

I've had several jobs repairing leaks in PVC DWV systems at 2 different houses where I'm 100% positive that no primer ever saw those pipes.

Both houses were McMansions with lots of baths. The owners have been given a proposal to redo the entire DWV system but instead are looking to sell and are addressing the leaks as the occur.

Skipping steps is not being nice to your customers.
As far as I'm concerned there is no debate.

http://www.herchem.com/products/images/pvcprimerpur60415.jpg

[SewerRatz]

PVC glue with cleaner. This has always been a good argument at lunch time...lol

I will not use cleaner when I am gluing pvc.
The cleaner is supposed to take off the wax layer.. It might, but it leaves a thin film of the cleaner itself. Any time a pipe has cleaner on it, it will not let the glue bond with the pvc.

A simple test. Take 2 pieces of pipe and a coupling. One one piece use cleaner, and the other, no cleaner. Glue them together with the coupling.
Let it sit over night if you want. Put the pipe in a vice with the coupling free.
Use a pipe wrench on the opposite pipe, and turn. The side with the cleaner will be the one that turn. Every time.

I have had this discussion with lots of plumbers. In some cases, it is in there rules they have to use cleaner to be up to code.

When we have a service call, and we see they used cleaner. 9 out of 10 times, that piece of pipe will have some kind of tie or restraint on it.

I myself will not use cleaner.


Travis

Let me point you to what I said in this post http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showpost.php?p=190000&postcount=9

I even tried to undo my glued joint with a pipe wrench. Your primer must have been contaminated or inferior. As I said never had a failed joint when using glue and primer. Key is to make sure the glue and primer is in good shape and clean. I prefer Black Swan products for they have the fastest set time I came across, since I mostly do service plumbing.

[Cookie]

Does it come in pink?:p

[kingsotall]

Tef tape does

http://www.ad-promotion-gift.com/pupload/2402/Teflon_Tape_18004.jpg

[Cookie]

Wow, that is purty. ;)

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_9_50.gif

[Waterwelldude]

There are some that swear by cleaner, and some that will never use it.

It just comes back to that particular persons experience with it.
In my opinion, cleaner is the worst thing you can use on pvc that is to be glued.

When there is high pressure on a pipe with cleaner, it will come apart.

A customer was running some air lines,125psi. They kept coming apart. He was using cleaner.
I told him to stop using cleaner and sand it, he did, and as not blown a line yet.

I am not saying not to do anything. The glaze still needs to be removed.
I am just saying sanding is far better than any cleaner out there.


Travis

That why I say. It comes down to that persons experiences with cleaner.

[Redwood]

Waterwelldude,
Perhaps a little Refresher course is in order for you...
Pay close attention to pages 45-47 at the following link...
Charlotte Pipe PLASTICS TECHNICAL AND INSTALLATION MANUAL (http://www.charlottepipe.com/Documents/PL_Tech_Man/ABS_PVC_pipe_fittings-TM.pdf)

If you don't like the extra steps required to properly solvent weld a PVC joint maybe you should start using ABS.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_3_1v.gif cookie @ work

[SewerRatz]

There are some that swear by cleaner, and some that will never use it.

It just comes back to that particular persons experience with it.
In my opinion, cleaner is the worst thing you can use on pvc that is to be glued.

When there is high pressure on a pipe with cleaner, it will come apart.

A customer was running some air lines,125psi. They kept coming apart. He was using cleaner.
I told him to stop using cleaner and sand it, he did, and as not blown a line yet.

I am not saying not to do anything. The glaze still needs to be removed.
I am just saying sanding is far better than any cleaner out there.


Travis

That why I say. It comes down to that persons experiences with cleaner.

I have used the primer on high head high pressure pumps never had a joint blow apart. The Maintenance man that changed the pump originally was sanding and gluing the pipe and had issues till he called me. When I used the primer he said "Why are you using that junk? I heard the stuff is just a gimmick." After I was done we fired off the two 2HP pumps at the same time and the joints held tight. When he was doing it the pipes blew apart with one pump running.


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14/14_6_5.gif

[Redwood]

There are some that swear by cleaner, and some that will never use it.

It just comes back to that particular persons experience with it.
In my opinion, cleaner is the worst thing you can use on pvc that is to be glued.

When there is high pressure on a pipe with cleaner, it will come apart.

A customer was running some air lines,125psi. They kept coming apart. He was using cleaner.
I told him to stop using cleaner and sand it, he did, and as not blown a line yet.

I am not saying not to do anything. The glaze still needs to be removed.
I am just saying sanding is far better than any cleaner out there.


Travis

That why I say. It comes down to that persons experiences with cleaner.

Oh Boy!
That is not a problem of the solvent welding it is a misapplication of material!:eek:
PVC is not rated for use with compressed air and it has nothing to do with the pressure!

Page 4 from the link supplied in my post above.

DO NOT USE CHARLOTTE PIPE PRODUCTS FOR COMPRESSED AIR OR GASES
Charlotte Pipe and Foundry Company products are not intended to be used for distribution or storage of compressed air or gases. Use of Charlotte Pipe products in inappropriate applications could result in product failure, serious injury or death.
Air or Gas Testing - Not Recommended
Air or compressed gas test are sometimes performed instead of hydrostatic (water) test. DANGER: Charlotte Pipe and Foundry Company does not recommend air or gas testing, consistent with PPFA User Bulletin 4-80 and / or ASTM D 1785. Pipe and fitting materials under air or gas pressure can explode, causing serious injury or death. Charlotte Pipe will not be responsible or liable for injury or death to persons or damage to property or for claims for labor and / or material arising from any alleged failure of our products during testing with air or compressed gasses.

If your friend is doing this at a place of business you may want to bring the following links to his attention.

OSHA Hazard Information Bulletin on the Use of Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) Pipe in Above ground Installations (http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html)
http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19901213.html
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=20202

[kingsotall]

Then again he was a maintenance man... :p

[SewerRatz]

How the heck did that smiley get into my post? Hmm somehow in my last post this got left out. Waterwelldude I have a question please do not get offended for me asking are you a licensed plumber in Texas?


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_1.gif

[Waterwelldude]

My point exactly.:)

Some swear by it, and some don't.

Good luck

Oh yea, The air line is just over 15 years old, and still in use.


I do like the smiley


SewerRat;
No I am not, lic. plumber. Never claimed to be.
I take no offence to anything ask about me.
I never make a statement I can't prove, or is untrue.


Travis

[SewerRatz]

Waterwelldude now that brings up a couple more questions.

Do you provide plumbing to others in Texas?
Since you are not a plumber how do you know your state does not require you to use primer to make a solvent weld joint?


Goodnight Cookie take care.

[Redwood]

Waterwelldude,
May I direct your attention back to this post.
I was adding some additional information links you may want to share with your friend who is using PVC for compressed air...
Especially if it is a place of business.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showpost.php?p=190026&postcount=19

[Waterwelldude]

I have to know when its required and when its not.
Within the city limits it is required. Outside in the county, it is not.

I have to know all the codes/rules/laws, pertaining to the project I am working on or with, be it well or septic system.


Because I hold two separate lic.
One for wells, and one for septics.
I don't need a plumbers lic. to do any plumbing directly associated with my job, be it a well or a septic.

Now anything before that, that is where a lic. plumber is required.


Travis



Redwood;
I know that its not a good idea to use pvc in this way.
It has been done by thousands of people, and will continue to be used.
Your not supposed to speed, but it happens.

[SewerRatz]

I have to know when its required and when its not.
Within the city limits it is required. Outside in the county, it is not.

I have to know all the codes/rules/laws, pertaining to the project I am working on or with, be it well or septic system.


Because I hold two separate lic.
One for wells, and one for septics.
I don't need a plumbers lic. to do any plumbing directly associated with my job, be it a well or a septic.

Now anything before that, that is where a lic. plumber is required.


Travis



Redwood;
I know that its not a good idea to use pvc in this way.
It has been done by thousands of people, and will continue to be used.
Your not supposed to speed, but it happens.

After a bit of on-line research I found that Texas requires the use of primer to be used on PVC pipe prior to the use of the solvent. I find it hard to believe that counties and cities are allowed to make the code less strict.

Here in Illinois the Illinois Plumbing Code is the bare minimum the plumbing can be done, cities , townships and counties can not make the code any less strict, but they can make it stricter. For example the Illinois code says Type M copper is allowed for potable water supply within a building, all odd Du Page county changed the code to that copper pipe in a building for potable water supply must be at least type L.

[Redwood]

As far as I'm concerned Texas needs to hold onto their plumbing ideas and their politicians....

They don't work well for the rest of us...:cool:

Read my auto signature...

[Cookie]

It looks like to me directions might come on that can?
My kids taught me to read all directions.

[Redwood]

Cookie you are right.
It is a case of reading is fundamental...

[Cookie]

I am woman, I am always right. :p

[Gary Swart]

Primer is required by code. Sure, you can stick pipes together without primer and it may hold forever. But, it may not. To argue against using primer is pointless and foolish, because you are arguing against code and good practice. Further more, to brag about using PVC for compressed air further diminishes your credibility. PVC can and does rupture under pressure and can and has seriously injured people. The "fact" that you have used it for a long period of time just indicates that you are on borrowed time. Both of your arguments are indefensible. :(

[wraujr]

Are you sure you guys are talking about same...

Waterwelldude is saying CLEANER and there is an Oatey Cleaner
6859

While you others are saying PRIMER.
6860

Would you ever use both???

[SewerRatz]

Codes say purple primer must be used. If he was using the cleaner, then he still was wrong.

[Gary Slusser]

I used clear Cleaner, and in a pinch rarely only Cement, no primer because I didn't have any inspections and my customers hated purple primer even though my 'plumbing' was very neat.

It's been awhile since I read manufacturers' of PVC instructions but what I recall says, any type of cleaner or primer made for PVC or, All Purpose cleaner and/or primer or cement can be used, including mechanical means such as sandpaper, steel wool etc. to get rid of the 'shine' dirt grease etc.. Which a thinking kinda guy might say... Hey, no cleaner or primer is needed!

So the CODE may call for Purple Primer but it has nothing to do with the strength of the joint, it is a visual used for inspection purposes. Along with the fact that the CODE isn't used everywhere; and geographically, there is more of the country not under CODE than is. And it's only a problem if a joint comes apart.

As to Texas... last I heard it has the 8th largest economy in the world and had a budget surplus up to just recently and I can't say that it doesn't now. If the state or region you live in doesn't have a surplus, you might want to ask why not. BTW, Texas managed to do that with no personal income tax. And you can't find better roads and services anywhere and it is the second largest state in the union.

[Cookie]

As a homeowner and one who likes coordination and fashion ( t shirts and jeans) it would be nice if they could make that stuff in perhaps, a nicer color, like baby blue, or minty green. :p Then the customers might not complain about the look of their pipes.

[Waterwelldude]

I am working on patenting a red striped glue. That when it dries, it will leave a cheerful pink line at the base of the joint being glued.
For the more adventurous customers, a minty green is also in the works.;)

Just trying to give some of the more colorful customers a choice.:D



I was just stating the things I have seen where cleaner was used.

Yall sure do get all bent out of shape, when someone has a different view than you do.


Travis

[Gary Slusser]

Cookie, robin's egg blue is my favorite.

[Redwood]

I am working on patenting a red striped glue. That when it dries, it will leave a cheerful pink line at the base of the joint being glued.
For the more adventurous customers, a minty green is also in the works.;)

Just trying to give some of the more colorful customers a choice.:D



I was just stating the things I have seen where cleaner was used.

Yall sure do get all bent out of shape, when someone has a different view than you do.


Travis


Sounds like you might have beeen sniffing it a bit already!

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/iblewc3p0fk7.jpg

[Cass]

The only purpose of purple primer is so an inspector can see that it was primed/cleaned...it is slightly less aggressive than clear...the use of purple will not make the weld any stronger than clear...in fact when we were first required to use it here it was causing the pipe to slowly back out and it was causing problems...we (plumbers) started mixing clear primer with purple at 50/50 and this solved the problem while leaving a telltale purple stain so inspectors could see it was primed...priming should be done when solvent welding per the directions on the can,thanks cookie, per code...and if the use of purple is required by code, it should be used...

using PVC for compressed air is nuts in my NSHO....

[nhmaster]

NH does not require purple primer, but it does require primer and you can buy the stuff in clear. Without the primer, a solvent weld is not completed. The primer cleans and softens the pipe and fitting so that the glue can penetrate both and make what is when dry, a solid piece of plastic. If you are getting a coat of purple that is hard and dry you using too much and not working fast enough.

Now let's end this stupidity because all codes require primer for PVC and the reason tey do is because the manufacturer does.

[Redwood]

Now let's end this stupidity because all codes require primer for PVC and the reason tey do is because the manufacturer does.

Good luck on that. Once again stupid reigns supreme even after overwelming evidence in their face...

[chris8796]

The funny thing is, for most manufacturers, the only difference between the primer and cement is PVC. PVC cement is just primer with 10-20% PVC resin dissolved in it (and a small amount of fumed silica). I don't see how primer could make a weaker solvent weld. Its just used to clean the surface. I don't know if they use mold release agent in the manufacture of PVC Pipe, but that could be another reason.

[kingsotall]

http://www.neowin.net/forum/fun/die_thread_die.jpg

[GabeS]

Quick question. Do you apply the glue directly after the primer is applied, or do you let it dry for a minute?

[Redwood]

Quick question. Do you apply the glue directly after the primer is applied, or do you let it dry for a minute?

Directly afterwards. As you are applying the primer make sure the surface of the pipe and fitting is being cleaned. It will actually take the lettering right off the pipe.