How to fix "flex" in the bottom of a bathtub

[iowa70]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum and I've looked through and tried to find someone else with a similar problem but with no luck. I have an acrylic/fiberglass bathtub which the bottom of the tub flexes when I get in it. I'm worried that this flexing will cause a crack in the tub. I have styrofoam installed as a base underneath the tub. I can see this b/c I have opened up a piece of drywall in my closet so I have access to 2 sides of the bathtub (doing repairs to adjacent bathroom). I was wondering if I should take the styrofoam out and put mortar underneath the tub to have more of a solid base? Would this fix the problem? Any other suggestions other than putting mortar in? I've also thought about making a "box" out of 2x4's and a some plywood and shimming underneath the box to support the bottom of the tub. Thoughts?? Ideas??? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Basement_Lurker]

Setting the tub or shower base in a proper mortar bed during installation is the only proper way to install fiberglass units. You may be able to pack in a somewhat dry mortar mix after the fact since you have access to the underside of the tub, but I doubt it will be very effective as you won't mould the mortar to give proper support. And if your base doesn't have plywood underneath, you will probably create high spots which could make things worse over time.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Thatguy]

Figure what places in the tub bottom are most in need of support. Put shims there. Just reducing the flexing will prolong tub life, assuming fiberglass is subject to fatigue failures just as metal is.

 

[iowa70]

Setting the tub or shower base in a proper mortar bed during installation is the only proper way to install fiberglass units. You may be able to pack in a somewhat dry mortar mix after the fact since you have access to the underside of the tub, but I doubt it will be very effective as you won't mould the mortar to give proper support. And if your base doesn't have plywood underneath, you will probably create high spots which could make things worse over time.

Thanks for your response. So putting the mortar around the tub after it's installed wouldn't be than having the flexing caused by the styrofoam? I guess is it better to try to fix the flexing problem now by using mortar or wait until it cracks and just replace the entire tub?

 

[iowa70]

Figure what places in the tub bottom are most in need of support. Put shims there. Just reducing the flexing will prolong tub life, assuming fiberglass is subject to fatigue failures just as metal is.

There's about 3-4" of styrofoam underneath the tub and this styrofoam is already shimmed. I've gone around and pushed the shims in farther but the flexing is still pretty bad.

 

[Basement_Lurker]

The best thing you can do is replace the tub and set the new one in a proper full mortar bed. The tub you have now has already been flexing for some time now and has weakened somewhat.

But obviously you aren't interested in doing that, so you should just stick to shimming the foam as best as you can to give the base more support. I really don't recommend you removing the foam in favour of trying to stuff mortar underneath the base....you won't be able to do it adequately enough to provide proper support.

 

[jnyost]

Fill the tub about 1/2 or 3/4 of the way full and use expanding foam underneath the tub. Don't get the windows/door version, just get the regular expanding foam. It works well. That's what they used on my new Jacuzzi tub. They say they stopped using mortar a long time ago.

 

[Jadnashua]

Foam will literally glue the tub to the floor and will be a major pain to remove. Also, if you don't get the stuff that remains flexible, it can crumble if you get enough point load to compress it (you might not), or expansion/contraction degrades it (which you will likely get).

IMHO, the right way to do this is with mortar, and it is MUCH easier done when setting the tub than after. It's strong enough to not crumble, if done right, and has great compressive strength (and it's cheap!).

Depending on access, you may be able to push some deck mud underneath and solve your problem. Deck much is much like wet beach sand - it will compact, does not run, and is cheap. You'd probably want to start with the tub full and try to pack it fairly dense, otherwise it will not have much strength. Pack too tight, and you'll bow the bottom, too loose, and it may crumble. Generally, it won't stick to things. You'd also want to try to place a sheet of plastic or felt paper on the floor to minimize the subflooring from wicking out the water which weakens the cement. It will be a hassle.

 

[jnyost]

My contractors actually state the opposite which is why I posted it as an option. I've not done it myself, just helped them do it to my tub. They have pulled several tubs that were insulated in and didn't have any problem. My post was a reflection of their experiences and thoughts.

The insulation is not so hard that it will crumble, it's just more firm. The window/door stuff is soft and would provide very little support. The standard stuff is strong enough to provide support but yet it still gives. You can squirt some on the ground and squeeze it after it sets. You'll see it's not rock hard, just very firm.

 

[jnyost]

Excerpt from my jacuzzi tub installation manual for supporting the tub.

minimal expansion structural foam having a density of a minimum of 5 lbs./cubic ft

 

[MiamiCanes]

I'm interested in this thread, too. I set my new tub (acrylic, with built-in OSB bottom resting on two fiberglass shells) in mortar when I installed it last Sunday. It's "99%" solid, but there are a couple of spots where I've heard it creak a tiny bit while walking around inside of it... mainly, the spot above the tub's center point, which is NOT directly supported by the tub's factory-supplied supports (one is ~6" wide and sits below the front of the tub between the middle and where the drain hole is, and the other is ~24" wide and sits below the flat part of the tub that's furthest from the drain).

Are acrylic tubs truly ever supposed to be "completely" rock-solid, without the slightest hint of a creak anywhere, ever? Or is an occasional creak an inherent trait that you're never really going to eliminate 100%? Mortar would be pretty hard to shove under the unsupported middle span between the fiberglass supports, but foam would be pretty easy to inject under there.

Just to emphasize, it's generally not "creaky", but while walking around inside of it installing the valves & stuff on the wall, I've averaged a brief, muted creak or two per minute of active motion.

 

[hj]

support

Get a can, or cans, of low expansion foam. Put a long piece of plastic tubing on the end of the nozzle, then slide the tubing under the tub and start shooting the foam in as you pull the tube out. It will glue the tub to the floor, but that will only be a minor problem when, and if, the tub is removed someday. You also do not want a "flexible" foam because that would just allow the tub to keep flexing. Low expansion foam will fill the space and expand sideways instead of trying to lift the tub, which it couldn't do anyway once it is locked in position.

 

[MiamiCanes]

Well, phase one of the foam-filling is complete. I began by injecting "large gap" Great Stuff foam into the ~1cm void that Laurel Mountain inexplicably left between most of the front support and the OSB bottom.

The good news: the creaking sounds mostly went away when I step over the newly-filled area.

The bad news: it's hard to explain, but I kept feeling like I was about to fall down a little while ago when I took a shower and stood over the newly-reinforced front part of the tub while washing my hair. The tub floor there still deflects when I stand on it... it just deflects silently and more slowly. I kept getting this slow, constant "sinking feeling" that was actually pretty disturbing and disorienting when I had my eyes closed while rinsing the shampoo out.

I'm not really sure why it felt so "weird". All I can think of is that before, when it made creaking noises every now and then, it kept me alert and expecting to feel motion for a moment after it happened. Now that it's silent, and the motion is dampened and slowed down, it's more insidious and startling.

Was the "large opening" foam the right one, or should I have used the "normal" or "fire" version of "great stuff"? I pulled a blob of the version I used from the garbage can, and noticed that it was fairly compressible. Are the other versions firmer when cured?

Also, is there any straightforward way to get a longer tube? When I filled the first gap tonight, I actually had to use duct tape and TAPE the dispenser in the "flow" position, because I couldn't actually reach it to operate it while filling the gap. If I can somehow attach another foot or two of something like clear aquarium tubing, it would make it a LOT easier to aim and dispense.

 

[PlumbPowerHouse]

As a plumber, we run into this a lot. We do new construction as well and on every new rough-in we put mortar beneath the tubs. It helps to support and gets rid of the flex. Since the tub is already installed, it will be harder to fix, but it's still possible. I suggest trying the mortar if you can do it. Wedges would be the next idea.

 

[hj]

tube

Just buy a longer piece of the same size tubing that came with the foam canister.

 

[udelslayer]

Been doing a lot of research on this. I understand the pitfalls of band-aiding this situation. I plan to rip out the tub in a couple months budget willing and DIY it with a real base like structolite.

Anyway. I have been looking at low pressure, low expansion foams to fill the space beneath a 30yr old corning "fiberglas" (one "s", the product line) 3pc install. There is a lot of creaking, but after reading so many forums, I realized its the tiny lateral movement between the support feet pegs and the wood floor it sits on. Surprisingly, the original builder didnt put base, felt, or anything down. I've cut holes in strategic places and can get underneath in a limited capacity. I tried shimming on the ribs, but it didnt do as much as I wanted. I am planing to use low expansion foam as an experiment. I'll put a carpet, blocks and about 30% fill will water to prevent lift. I want to fill as much as I can with the least pressure in the body but without lift. The space from the floor to the top of the inside of the ribs is probably 4 inches. I'll fit in some long strips of plastic on the floor to prevent gluing when I remove it later. No warranties, and this is an experiment and education for the most part.

Fortunately, there is no evidence of leakage anywhere. Thats a big plus. I'm surpised at our weights that this tub hasnt caved. Maybe its as flexible as a Sage fly fishing rod since fiberglass is pretty flexible. What I did notice is that on most fiberglass tubs, you can see the structure/fibers. On this, its smooth like the top. Perhaps its a proprietary material. Who knows.

I found OSI Quad window and door closed cell phone at 11/can. Does anyone know if this is superior to the great stuff window/door foam. I tested it on some pvc fills in the garage. It doesnt seem to be too aggressive, but I'll have to make sure no bubbles are in the fill or else it has no benefit. I guess the end results will tell me. I did learn that foaming a tub underneath will provide some insulation and keep the water warmer longer.

I havent tested the OSI because of the expense, but I might just do that. Its supposed to remain flexible and waterproof because of the closed cell. I've never seen it used so I dont know how the strength is and didnt see the psi rating on their tech sheets. I had a bad experience with that DAP foam in the garage because it just turns into something akin to dried flour. I dont advocate using it for anything.

Thoughts? Warnings? Criticisms? Jokes?

Jeremy

 

[Reach4]

I've cut holes in strategic places and can get underneath in a limited capacity. I tried shimming on the ribs, but it didnt do as much as I wanted. I am planing to use low expansion foam as an experiment. I'll put a carpet, blocks and about 30% fill will water to prevent lift.

Rather than soft foam, can you jam plastic bags of mortar mix in the holes? So I am picturing cutting maybe 2 inch holes with a hole cutter, being careful to not drill into the tub. You then cram bags into the holes as much as you can before the mortar hardens. The mortar does not need air to harden. I am not a pro.

I am picturing 2 people concurrently making 2 inch balls/dollops of mortar in sandwich bags, and handing them quickly to the stuffer of the balls.

If there was an easy home way to inject mortar into smaller holes, that would be nice. I don't know if something like that is available.

 

[Jadnashua]

The fiberglass tub that came in my condo was replaced after about 18-years...it didn't leak, but did flex, and in the areas where it flexed most, there was a large area of crazing starting that I'm sure would have lead to stress cracks and failures. It might have taken it a few more years before it actually failed, but it was definitely time!

It is a rare house when the subflooring underneath the tub is perfectly flat and level, and an equally rare tub where whatever they used on the bottom is actually perfectly flat and level, too. As a result, except in a cast iron tub which is more than strong enough to support itself, you want to ensure things are supported across as much of the surface as you can. I've seen some spray foam that gets brittle and shatters as it ages (more when it is exposed to UV), but you need something that can take a little compression without deforming permanently. A high-density, closed-cell foam will be able to support the most, but, you will also use much more of it for the same volume.

 

[udelslayer]

This is a hallway main bath on the second floor. Its the only one with a tub. On the back side is the kitchen, at the foot is a small closet that seems like an afterthought because the return register for the hvac is behind it. The head/plumbing side of this tub/shower backs up to the master bedroom 48" shower. IMHO, it was dumb of anyone to assemble this with no access panels in case you need to repair.

The holes I cut are under the kitchen sink where I can see the tub and inside this small (its 12x12 wide and 5ft tall) closet where I have enough space to jam my arm up to the shoulder ( I might lose a watch, but I cant clap).

I wanted to put mortar under it. I thought about making an industrial sized syringe with a couple of pvc, o-rings, and a healthy length of flexible tubing to inject into the spaces, however, I can imagine that if you can't get the mortar pressed into the webbing of the tub (and the reason you squish it on top) then its not going to support anything. I experimented with some 1x3's and tried to shim some of that webbing and while it decreased the sound, it wasnt worth it. The "feet" grinding against the floor turn the tub into a speaker. I have the same issue in the master shower, and there is the same configuration in the basement, but because the feet are on concrete, its not going to make that sound but it flexes.

I saw the syringe design from here:

but it may not work if the mix is as dry as you really want it.

My reason for the foam is that it will insulate and grow into the space better than mortar, but I suppose if I cut holes in the skirt side of this sacrificial tub that can be patched, I could force it in there but would it extend into the webbing enough to support it, especially if in a bag? What I'd want to do is insert bags the width of the tub in 3 or 4 locations along the skirt, leaving a lip of the bag exposed so I can then inject and inflate the bags with mortar. I assume lawn and leaf bags would do the trick and have enough slack so that the bag itself isnt shaping the mix.

lol@stuffer of the balls.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Spray foam is still compressible after it sets, so in the long term, it is not going to fix antything, and it is going to cause a bigger cleanup problem when you need to go back to the drawing bard.