Well water treatment? Please help.

sammyhydro11 said:

Ok lee, go and find out what it takes and cost just to test for gardia and then come back ...

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Whoa! Slow down just a bit, Sammy.

Now that you, as a pro, have let me know, I might go with your suggestion if you can resolve this related dilemma:

It is possible, but unusual, to find a well which is positive for these parasites, but coliform negative.

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Once again: Maybe some folks would just want to know for sure.

Note: Helping others is not a combat sport.

Lee,
I'm trying to make a point here and i pulled up that info just to back up what i was saying. If one person told someone that the cost to do two giardia test was going to cost them close to 1400.00 dollars and then they got a second opinion with the second person saying that there is a less costly and more practical approach to this testing,where would that leave the first guy? With such a big difference in cost to do these tests i would think that most people would want to start by going the least expensive route,which would be the smart thing to do. This all started with a question about iron bacteria and turned into a giardia issue because someone at a lab told her there is giardia in her water. Coliform bacteria will cause someone to get sick as well. The proper approach is to get the water tested and also have the well inspected. Is the well on a farm,is it too close to a septic system,is there a broken well cap, or a water tight cap, is there a breach in teh well casing itself? You make it sound like im being out of line with suggestions but if you had to deal with these kinds of things on a regular basis you would think differently as to your approach. If i was a homeowner and someone came to me with that kind of figure to do water testing i think i would look into a cost of a new well. I totally understand the concern for peoples health but by taking the suggested course of action can save people alot of time and money.

SAM

I've had Giardia... $700 would have been cheap as opposed to the weeks I spent trying to figure out what was wrong with me, it tends to hit you hard for a few days, then you get better, then it hits you hard again... this goes on and on until you figure out it wasn't something you ate.

Rancher

sammyhydro11 said:

Lee,
I'm trying to make a point here ...

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Yes, and so am I.

sammyhydro11 said:

If one person told someone that the cost to do two giardia test was going to cost them close to 1400.00 dollars and then they got a second opinion with the second person saying that there is a less costly and more practical approach to this testing, where would that leave the first guy?

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That would be up to the customer, and it is not the responsibility of a "pro" to make that decision for the customer and try to make him or her accept it.

sammyhydro11 said:

With such a big difference in cost to do these tests i would think that most people would want to start by going the least expensive route ...

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If that would be sufficient, we agree. And to further support that less-expensive course of action, the pro with the second opinion could simply again mention what you had said about a chlorine treatment taking care of the Giardia along with whatever else.

sammyhydro11 said:

This all started with a question about iron bacteria and turned into a giardia issue because someone at a lab told her there is giardia in her water. Coliform bacteria will cause someone to get sick as well. The proper approach is to get the water tested and also have the well inspected.

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Until there might be some reason for me to believe otherwise, I accept your word on that.

sammyhydro11 said:

You make it sound like im being out of line with suggestions ...

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No, not once the relevant questions have been answered.

sammyhydro11 said:

... if you had to deal with these kinds of things on a regular basis you would think differently as to your approach.

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Certainly, and now that the relevant questions have been answered, I already do.

sammyhydro11 said:

If i was a homeowner and someone came to me with that kind of figure to do water testing i think i would look into a cost of a new well. I totally understand the concern for peoples health but by taking the suggested course of action can save people alot of time and money.

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Understood ... and the pro who quietly and factually conveyed that to me while answering my questions and overcoming any doubts or objections without attacking the other guy would likely get my business. But, maybe there are some customers who think much differently about that kind of thing.

Ok lee,
sounds good. My suggestions and advice derive simply from experience.Mining companies spend a good amount of money doing test borings to determine the potential for gold. I guess they dont want to spend millions to find out there is nothing there just because somone found a spec of gold in a nearby stream. If you think someone should go with a giardia test before a standard bacteria test,well,thats your opinion, and thats fine. But dont go ripping apart my replies trying to make me into some kind of fluke becuase you seem to know one thing about the topic,giardia makes you sick. In every town where there is a hazardous waste clean up the EPA has to go to town meetings to explain to the public why hazardous waste are not going to pose a threat becuase people only see the potential threat but dont understand anything else about it. Its perfectly normal for the public to feel that way. When those meetings are over most people are calmed down and leave knowing that things are being handled in a certain way for a reason.Maybe there are people out there that can afford to do a giardia test right away but i'll tell you this, there are more people out there that cant. There are proper steps and procedures for these things and i'm one that follows them. If you still dont understand this whole thing and it still doesn't make sense to you,i hope you are not in the well business because by not having a proper understanding of it you could freak alot of people out.

SAM

It is unlikely that you have Giardia in a deep well that is not under the influence of surface water. It is even less likely that some guy, without extensive testing, is going to be able to tell you that your well is probably contaminated with Giardia.

Giardia lamblia is a cyst that is sometimes found in surface waters. The only wells that are considered susceptible to Giardia are shallow wells and springs that are subject to surface water infiltration.

Such wells are classified as "wells under the influence of surface waters".

The problem with testing for Giardia is that testing is not conclusive. It can be absent one day and present later. The usual test is to do a culture test for organisms that are found in surface waters. If such organisms are found, then the well is classified as "under the influence of surface waters" and the treatment must be as if it is a surface water supply.

The EPA requires filtration for public water supplies using surface waters. Disinfection is not considered reliable for killing the larger surface-water organisms such as Giardia and Cryptosporidium.

http://chppm-www.apgea.army.mil/WPD/Disinfectants.aspx

UV is considered acceptable for individual water treatment systems. The water must be pre-filtered to keep the lamp from being coated with substances that will prevent the light from killing the organisms.

If I knew or suspected that my well was contaminated with Giardia, then I would probably filter and chlorinate. If it has organisms related to giardia, then I would want a residual disinfection, such as chlorine.

Bob NH said:

It is unlikely that you have Giardia in a deep well that is not under the influence of surface water. It is even less likely that some guy, without extensive testing, is going to be able to tell you that your well is probably contaminated with Giardia ...

If I knew or suspected that my well was contaminated with Giardia, then I would probably filter and chlorinate. If it has organisms related to giardia, then I would want a residual disinfection, such as chlorine.

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Well, there you go, Daisy! Have someone carefully consider the possibility of your well being "under the influence of surface water" as well as the matter of the "culture test" and other factors Bob has mentioned, then decide what to do from there.

Does that sound about right to you, Sammy?

ummm..lee, it sounded right to me the first time i explained it. I think that maybe there are a few things you should consider askng yourself. Like maybe you shouldn't comment on things you know little about.You talk about combat sports but Its things like this that screw up these threads. I didn't want anyone getting dragged into it but I'm glad bob touched on it. And even after all was said you still had to reply with some wise comments like," Does that sound right to you sammy?" Sounds liek your still looking for trouble.

SAM

sammyhydro11 said:

ummm..lee, it sounded right to me the first time i explained it ...

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Well, it actually took you quite a while, and with the major distraction being all of your talk about other people! And if you look closely, I was mostly just doing my best to simply cull/stop the nonsense and try to get all the facts together in a sentence or two!

Peace to you, Sammy.

Come on lee,
just look at how you tore apart my replies. You were discrediting what i had to say the whole time. Rancher starts talking me down on a subject that he clearly knows nothing about and then i start recieving it from you like you have all the info. Until bob touched on it i was being attacked like i was some water well terrorist or something. I supose this thread would have gone smooth if you and rancher didn't feel the need to make comments about a topic you both need to learn more about.

SAM

Oh and by the way, things like this cant be explained in a sentence or two when you have 2 people constantly trying to tell you that you dont know what you are talking about.

SAM

Not all UV lights kill crypto or giardia cysts; only Class A lights do.

Chlorination is not efficient in killing/controlling crypto or giairdia cysts.

Everyone with a contaminated well can not afford to do the testing needed to identify the contaminate. In many if not most cases, they should purchase the proper equipment to treat the water rather than spend much more on testing that may not show the contaminate unless they test very frequently because bacteria and cycts etc. come and go in a day or two, or more. And assuming a negative result means no contamination next week isn't a good thing.

Many people with a contaminated well can't afford to inspect the well for the causes of contamination, or to drill a new well and in many cases there is nowhere to drill or a rig can't get into/onto the property to drill. Again, they are better off treating the water with proper water treatment equipment.

An anti business atittude can be a dangerous thing when it causes a "pro's" advice to be considered as nothing more than s/he attempting to sell something... The opinion or guess of a stranger or neighbor etc. that really knows nothing but gossip but talks as if they do is the wrong person to listen to.

Alernative testing - free

In many places you can creatively obtain a free water test from big brother health department by complaining as a tenant that you are getting sick from the well water. Tell them that your brother owns the house and he wants you dead. They dont pull title on the house before giving a free water test that might cost you several hundreds privately...

To preserve your ethics more, some jurisdictions will provide testing if you complain that the neighbor without the teeth also is without a septic tank and he discharges his budweiser effluent into an old buried pick-up.

Finally, if you have good health insurance, drink a lot of the water, get sick and have the hospital do some stool samples to tell you the same thing.

Seems like it would be better to put a sub micron filter on the taps that might get water in your mouth and then drink only bottled water. What is the diameter of Giardia?

You filter experts - would not a hot water heater pasteurize contaminated water and eliminate giardia and coliform? maybe use your hot water tap for drinking water after cooled....

Bob NH said:

It is unlikely that you have Giardia in a deep well that is not under the influence of surface water....

UV is considered acceptable for individual water treatment systems. The water must be pre-filtered to keep the lamp from being coated with substances that will prevent the light from killing the organisms.

If I knew or suspected that my well was contaminated with Giardia, then I would probably filter and chlorinate. If it has organisms related to giardia, then I would want a residual disinfection, such as chlorine.

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Many thanks Bob for your informative post. I was looking at a friend's UV system just yesterday, and was wondering why he had a filter/carbon filter combo AHEAD OF his UV mechanism, and now I understand. At least, I'm assuming that the company he bought the pump/filter/UV board from (pre-assembled) knew what they were doing!

Raucina said:

Seems like it would be better to put a sub micron filter on the taps that might get water in your mouth and then drink only bottled water. What is the diameter of Giardia?

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A 1 micron filter will take it out.

Rancher

valveman said:

One self proclaimed expert talking to another. I'm not drinking that water until a real professional with a viable company tells me it is safe.

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Valveman you're losing your creditability, especially when you recommend your CSV for every household in the world.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/healthywater/factsheets/giardia.htm

Since I've has this bad little bug, that make me an expert... professional, no.

Rancher

valveman said:

Since you have had the bad little bug, sounds like you should have let a real professional do your water system.

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Nice try Valveman... but it wasn't in my water system, it came from a wilderness area, many years ago. Oh and a professional did originally do my water system, he spec'd a large pressure tank and a small HP pump, never did he mention a CSV... probably because he knew he'd designed the system correctly.

Rancher

Raucina said:

Seems like it would be better to put a sub micron filter on the taps that might get water in your mouth and then drink only bottled water. What is the diameter of Giardia?

You filter experts - would not a hot water heater pasteurize contaminated water and eliminate giardia and coliform? maybe use your hot water tap for drinking water after cooled....

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Giardia cysts are about 5 microns (0.005 mm). Crypto are a little smaller, around 3.

http://www.harmsco.com/uploads/pdf/harmsco_polypleat_catalog.pdf

Check out the Harmsco PolyPleat 1 micron absolute cartridges, certified to meet EPA requirements for removing Giardia and Cryptosporidium.

You need disinfection to kill bacteria and viruses. All viruses and most bacteria are too small to be effectively removed by filters.

Yeah marketing says you can filter them out but... all you have to do is put a new cartridge in and contaminate the housing or cartridge and you've prevented the filter from doing the job.

So filters are not a good idea and if you want the job done with the least hassel and all but guaranteed serviceability, go with a Class A UV light.

Gary Slusser said:

So filters are not a good idea and if you want the job done with the least hassel and all but guaranteed serviceability, go with a Class A UV light.

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What brands/models would you recommend? I think I remember from your previous postings that the lamp needs changing every year, how much does that cost.

Rancher