Well water treatment? Please help.

[Bob NH]

The equipment you use is much larger than needed in most residential installations and the residential owner is not up to much maintenance and none at all if it's needed daily. I use automatically backwashed turbidity filters and the only periodic maintenance on the system is cleaning and replenishing the disinfection equipment. That's only every few months.

The only daily "maintenance" that is required is the quality assurance measurements required by public agencies for reporting. Chlorine (bleach) can be supplied from containers that last at least a week in small systems.

I usually size the first stage cotton filters of surface water systems to not exceed 0.5 GPM per 10" unit, or 2 GPM per 40" long unit. At that flow rate, the life filtering water from small lakes and large ponds usually exceeds 10,000 gallons per 10" unit. Most seasonal systems put in new cartridges in the spring when they open camp and throw them away when they close in the fall. Only a few with algae contamination require changes during the season.

There is a small system somewhere in Georgia that I have never seen. A farmer gets water from a spring. He has been drinking it for years but was concerned about his grandchildren when they visit. I sent him two housings for 20" long filters, a supply of filter cartridges, a chlorinator pump, and a sketch showing how to put it together. Two years later he called to order more cartridges and told me he was very happy with the system. He had seen one of my systems when visiting Maine.

 

[Gary Slusser]

BTW
Class B UV light can destroy pathogens, but they are not used because they don't employ safe guards against failure, such a flow restrictors, shut-off solenoids, intensity monitors and an end life of 40mj/cm2. So therefore not recommended for micro-biologically unknown water, especially on public water supplies for small systems. In other applications, they are often, and best, used as a complementary disinfection system.

Andy, what defines a Class A light from a Class B light?

Only Class A is approved for the remediation of cysts and crypto. Correct?

The last I looked a few years ago, the EPA's BAT provides for UV without "complementary disinfection". Has that changed?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[MaxBlack]

I have a rainwater collection system...

Do you have the kind of setup that dumps the first few gallons of "roof wash" before collecting the remainder? I forget what that device is called...

It's usually called just that, a "roof washer". But there are lots of different approaches and all have their shortcomings (yes I do roof washing).

Here in TX you find a lot of DIY water projects owing to long distances and the difficulty of finding/getting access-to qualified professionals. So I indeed prefer "DIY" here cuz I end-up knowing exactly what I have and how it works and how to maintain it. And (thankfully) UPS and Fed-X trucks can and do make it up my road!

What is curious to me is that there is very little available (at least on the Internet) in the way of hard information on filtration and purification systems beyond water-well types (e.g. spring or lake or in my case Rainwater collection). There are a lot of individual gizmos out there, but not as much in the way of "puddle-to-sink" advice. Maybe someday Bob NH will add to his "hobby" business the sale of "how-to" manuals for the systems he puts together... Or maybe I will do it as I will become myself an expert before too long (or die trying)!

 

[Daisy]

Lee

Mine is 65' deep, and I will let you know what I end up doing and what is cost.

Have you finished with your well yet? Just curious, because after reading all the responses I am more confused than ever.

 

[Bob NH]

What is curious to me is that there is very little available (at least on the Internet) in the way of hard information on filtration and purification systems beyond water-well types (e.g. spring or lake or in my case Rainwater collection). There are a lot of individual gizmos out there, but not as much in the way of "puddle-to-sink" advice. Maybe someday Bob NH will add to his "hobby" business the sale of "how-to" manuals for the systems he puts together... Or maybe I will do it as I will become myself an expert before too long (or die trying)!

I can explain the system here in a few paragraphs. The actual hardware depends on your situation.

The principle is to filter the water to get out anything that is filterable, and to disinfect to take care of anything the filter won't catch.

The first stage is to pump the water through the best cotton filter I can get. The manufacturer says it is 0.5 micron! Don't believe a word of that. I tested the "0.5 micron filter" with a certified Met-One particle counter and found that it removed about 99% of 5 micron particles. For those who know logarithms, that is known as 2-log reduction. That was sufficient to be allowed credit for 1.5 log reduction, or 97% removal.

Then I needed to provide disinfection to provide another 1.5 log inactivation of giardia to get a total of 3-log (99.9%) removal or inactivation of giardia. That requires a contact tank (a big polyethylene tank) that provides 30 to 45 minutes of contact time at typical temperature, pH, and chlorine content. There are baffles in the tank to prevent short-circuiting of the flow.

Water is pumped from the contact tank into the distrubution system; usually one or more hydropneumatic tanks. Systems usually have the tanks in place; some about 50 years old. I have seen more than a few old riveted tanks still being used. The largest was about 5000 gallons. No bladder tanks available in that size.

In the past couple of years, I have started adding the Harmsco 1-micron-absolute filters as a second stage. Although that filter has been demonstrated to remove 99.9% or more of giardia-size particles (about 5 microns) the credit for filtration is limited to 2.5 Log (99.7% removal) and disinfection is used to achieve the total 3.0 log required. With the 1-micron-absolute filters the required contact time is on the order of 10 to 15 minutes.

Sodium hypochlorite is added by a positive displacement pump that runs at the same time as the first stage water pump. Most systems use household bleach because there are no OSHA issues handling it, as there would be with commercial 15% sodium hypochlorite.

The first stage filters are operated at about 0.5 GPM per equivalent 10" length, which is 1/10 to 1/6 what most manufacturers rate them for flow. That results in a lifetime of 10,000 to 15,000 gallons per 10" unit when filtering water from small lakes without too much algae. Most seasonal places operate all summer with one set of filters. I designed and build my own filter housings to get lots of area at low cost for the housings.

I build a custom control panel for each system using relay logic that is easy for the users to maintain. All controls are automatic so the only operator action is to make the required daily measurements and keep the chlorine feed tank supplied. They also need to watch the pressure gauges to know when to change the filter cartridges.

Regulations require daily tests of chlorine content, pH, temperature, turbidity, and water usage, and a calculation of disinfection effectiveness. That would not be required for an individual system.

The disinfection kills all bacteria and viruses. The filters may remove some bacteria but I don't count on that. Nobody ever has a problem. Nobody has ever failed the required coliform test and no "boil water" orders on any of my systems.

Water sources include lakes and ponds, shallow wells, and roof drainage.

I drink the water from any system that I install.

I usually use submersible pumps because they are the most versatile for getting proper head and flow.

I see a lot of systems where "professionals" have installed big 5 HP or greater centrifugal pumps to develop pressure when all that is needed for the flow is a 1.5 HP submersible matched to the system. Many have operating problems with their previous systems that I solve with the installation of the new systems.

Nobody has ever had to add staff to operate the system, although the state does now require a "very small system operator" license. The usual process if for the maintenance person to study for and take the test.

Adapting the system to home use requires only scaling down the components. Most of the material, except the filters and pumps, is available from HD or Grainger. A home user would not bother with a turbidity meter but must have a chlorine test kit.

 

[Leejosepho]

Have you finished with your well yet? Just curious, because after reading all the responses I am more confused than ever.

No, my well is still as it is, but I plan to have it professionally cleaned just as soon as I can afford to do so. Looking back, I can see how some of what I have done on my own has probably contributed to the overall problem. In the meantime, however, I believe you are getting some answers here:

If I knew or suspected that my well was contaminated with Giardia, then I would probably filter and chlorinate. If it has organisms related to giardia, then I would want a residual disinfection, such as chlorine.

I can explain the system here in a few paragraphs. The actual hardware depends on your situation.

The principle is to filter the water to get out anything that is filterable, and to disinfect to take care of anything the filter won't catch ...

Adapting the system to home use requires only scaling down the components. Most of the material, except the filters and pumps, is available from HD or Grainger. A home user would not bother with a turbidity meter but must have a chlorine test kit.

It sounds to me like we might both need to chlorinate.

 

[Sammyhydro11]

Daisy,
back to your original question. If you want to periodicaly chlorinate your well for iron bacteria it will have to be flushed out before you can use it again. Once it is flushed out it will not present any harm to your septic system or anything else. From reading your first post that was your original concern. Some local well companies might have better treatment methods than just pouring bleach down the well and recirculating it. You might want to make some phone calls and get different opinions and costs. If you go with a whole house treatment system, a bleach injection post carbon will remove the bleach down to a level that wont harm your septic or anything else. If you are getting sick from drinking this water,like i said before,start with a full water analysis. You will need an analysis anyway if you want to treat this water.

SAM

 

[MaxBlack]

The first stage is to pump the water through the best cotton filter I can get. The manufacturer...

In the past couple of years, I have started adding the Harmsco 1-micron-absolute filters as a second stage...

The first stage filters are operated at about 0.5 GPM per equivalent 10" length...Most seasonal places operate all summer with one set of filters. I designed and build my own filter housings to get lots of area at low cost for the housings.

Thanks Bob NH--I am confused though about your 1st stage filtration. You buy "the best cotton filter" but this is actually just filtration material? Then you pack it into some custom-made housings? Can you describe these please.

I am interested to make a "first stage" filter myself, but don't know what to use for a housing:

1. At first I was thinking a rectangular-shape with a lid that I could put a simple window screen into. Would be easiest to remove & rinse the window screen after every rainfall. But I guess I'd have to make some concrete housing for it as no rectangular boxes with lids exist. Yes, I know, you are talking much finer filtration than this--I offer it only to let you know where my thinking started!

2. There are lots of smallish tanks available e.g. a local supplier has a 350gal; I suppose these could be packed with filtration material. Sounds like an awful mess to clean though.

3. Then there are plastic trash cans. I dunno if these could be made to fit & seal/not leak. Nor are they very sturdy.

4. Another thought is a long cylinder made of 4" or 6" PVC, but such a beast would be impossible to visually inspect (yeah I know--GAUGES!).

How far off-base am I in understanding your 1st filter?

Max

 

[Bob NH]

Thanks Bob NH--I am confused though about your 1st stage filtration. You buy "the best cotton filter" but this is actually just filtration material? Then you pack it into some custom-made housings? Can you describe these please.

4. Another thought is a long cylinder made of 4" or 6" PVC, but such a beast would be impossible to visually inspect (yeah I know--GAUGES!).

How far off-base am I in understanding your 1st filter?

Max

The first stage cotton filter cartridges are 40" long, 2.5" diameter commercially produced cartridges. They have the standard polypropylene cores. Cotton works better than polypropylene because it is more effective when wet than the polypropylene.

The systems are almost all seasonal (summer) users, so the housings can be used outdoors. The housings are made from a 20 ft length of 3" Schedule 40 PVC pipe with a stainless steel core tube that supports the cartridges. Cartridges are held end-to-end in compression with a stainless steel spring that pulls a plastic cap against the end of the last cartridge. The perforated core tube collects the filtered water and passes it out through one end of the filter. Feed water is admitted through a tee in the 3" pipe, and there is a set of flanges where the pipe is removed to change the cartridges, without affecting the plumbing connections. You don't need to see the cartridges because they are changed when the pressure loss reaches 20 to 25 psi.

There are some other details that are a too tedious to explain here but I can pass on if you really want to build your own.

The largest system uses six of the housings.

You can make any length you want but the cost of the flanges and fittings makes it most economical per unit if they are longer. The core tube can handle 12 GPM which is about the maximum flow that I use with that housing. Many operate at a lower flow rate.

The housings were designed to get lots of area at the lowest possible cost. When I designed this system, a commercial vendor was selling bag filter housings for $1800, each of which could contain a bag with about 4.5 square feet of area. My housings contain 13 square feet and at that time cost me less than 10% of that to make. One large operator with bag filters had a man on call around the clock to chage the filters when the pressure drop tripped the system. Filter area and dirt holding capacity is the biggest factor in long filter runs.

Effectiveness of the filter doesn't depend on the housing. Commercial housings will work just as well. I installed one system that operates through the winter and uses four of the double-length Big Blue housings in parallel with a less expensive version of the Harmsco polypleat cartridges for the first stage, and two of the 1-micron-absolute PP-BB-20-1 for the last stage.

 

[MaxBlack]

This has been very helpful Bob NH, thanks. Sorry if the OP has found the discussion to be too far OT!

I will start another thread if I feel the need to pick your brain some more.

 

[Leejosepho]

If you are getting sick from drinking this water,like i said before,start with a full water analysis. You will need an analysis anyway if you want to treat this water.

Here is a man I plan to have help with my own water testing, Daisy:

www.cleanairpurewater.com/water_test_kits.html

I have read his "water guide", and he and I have exchanged a few e-mails. He arranges for testing at a professional lab, and he only charges what the lab charges him plus a consultation fee for talking with him after the results have been sent both to him and to the client. Maybe he could be helpful to you.

 

[treecutter]

Iron bacteria in wells

When I installed my new pump and pressure tank I noticed that the old pump was totally clogged with bacterial iron. I put some bleach into the well and it cleared up for about 10 days. I also have a septic tank. My question is-- Is there anything that can treat the water in the well that is safe for a septic tank?

I happened to run across this thread and it mentioned our products, so I think a reply is necessary due to some misinformation.

The original question of this thread was: What to do about IRB clogging? Daisy is correct in wanting something to clean the water in the well. This is the ONLY place to get rid of the iron bacteria. All above ground systems treat EVERY gallon of water pumped. They do not protect the pump or the distribution line to the first filter, water softener or whatever. They soon clog themselves. It is also a fact that more bacteria are present in the water post filter than in front of it. Obviously Daisy had a pump problem that required a replacement. It takes 30 seconds for the new pump to start building up layers of IRB residue. The industry BAT's that are discussed are to put chlorine in the well. This is a temporary fix that makes the problem worse. You have to understand how iron bacteria lives and grows to see that the problem can be eliminated very easily and cheaply. IRB uses the iron in the water as a food source. The EPA calls it a nuisance bacteria because it is not harmful to drink. The living organisms secret a slime that aids in extracting the iron. As the colonies grow and die, they form layer after layer of dead cells. This looks like orange grit and it can become very hard. It is like a honeycomb inside. There is very little IRB floating freely in the water. That is why most water tests do not show the bacteria and are useless. The "clog" is the bacteria home similar to sea coral. This harbors other bacteria that IS harmful. When a well is dosed with chlorine, hardly ever is the correct amount used to totally clean the well. A huge amount of chlorine is needed to kill all the bacteria and the contact time would be at least 24 hours. You would have to pump to waste for hours to get the chlorine out of the well so you could drink it. With the increasing use of down the well cameras, it is shown that the chlorine pellets that are dropped in the well just collect on the bottom and little dissolve at the water temperature. The one gallon chlorine treatment per week that most sites recommend will eliminate some of the slime layer. This frees bacteria in the colonies to migrate to other areas in the well and pipes. If you are really concerned about your health, you would never use chlorine indiscriminately because of the trihalomethane residue.

To clear up some comments about our products: It is not a chlorinator. We treat only the water in the well column so the amount of Halosan is very little. Typical usage is to treat a well two times a day with a MEASURED amount of Halosan. This kills the slime outer layer, penetrates the honeycomb to kill the inner bacteria and also any floating bacteria including harmful bacteria such as the coliforms. It is certified by NSF for potable water. We can supply a system for the typical home owner for $1649 (much less than softener and filter systems) which uses about $130 per YEAR of Halosan (much less than a few months of chlorine tablets). We also have industrial and supply water systems. The installation is simple enough that home owners can do it. We "recommend" a plumber or well driller for local code compliance. We sell through distributors such as Home Depot Supply and independent water treatment specialists but the systems can be purchased directly from us.

We have run into a lot of resistance from the water industry because of the vast amount of money they make in replacing clogged pumps and filters. Daisy is correct in that the IRB problem can only be solved inside the well and our system is the only one on the market that does it. Also to answer her other question, it is perfectly safe for septic tanks. You can learn more at www.berrysystemsinc.com.

 

[Speedbump]

I viewed your site. I see basically a swimming pool chlorinator feeding something directly into the casing of the well.

What is this product that you inject into the well? Is it chlorine, acid or none of the above? Is this chemical harmful to metal, plastic or brass? How much must be injected to take care of Iron Bacteria in a normal installation per day/week/month?

I have never heard of your product, so I am curious as to what it is. I can see how it is used, I just want to know more about the product itself.

bob...

 

[Gary Slusser]

And he wants $1649 for the thing!!

 

[Speedbump]

I'de say that is a substantial mark up. Since a pool chlorinator sells for around $79.99.

bob...

 

[Sammyhydro11]

Any type of water treatment that can be sold at Home Depot to me is a bunch of crap. I wonder if they sell a backwash carbon filter and softener along with it? You can kill all the iron bacteria you want but it still needs to be filtered. Maybe i'm missing something here but this is only one part of the whole system that is needed.

SAM

 

[MaxBlack]

Any type of water treatment that can be sold at Home Depot to me is a bunch of crap...Maybe i'm missing something here...

Now there's an enlightened perspective! I do believe the latter is true...

You have to read Berry's story to learn he's distributing a product from Australia:

http://www.biostatengineering.com/halovac.htm

It seems "HaloSan" is just a new (U.S.?) name for the halovac sanitizer product--in any case it seems Berry Systems would do well to post the labeling for that product. I could not find any info at all on it or the NSF test results for it.

If everything incl. the sanitizer is imported from down-under that would explain some of the cost wouldn't it.

 

[Speedbump]

It would depend on how proud they are of this product that supposidly sanitizes the well. Maybe it's like Prescription Medicine. You have to get your investment back, so everyone pays $30.00 for one little pill.

I wonder what the inside of that casing looks like after 5 years of pouring this stuff down the well.

bob...

 

[Gary Slusser]

I don't see where a filter of any kind is mentioned in his post or the web site as being part of the $1649 price. He must want a lot for the chemical because...

He's using a disposable cartridge filter housing, turned upside down, that usually sells at retail for $15-25 plus maybe $10-15 of PVC plumbing materials. And his label.... but then there is some kind of motor/timer control and a flow switch or solenoid valve too.

AND it can't be used with a pitless adapter or where freezing can be a problem so most of the US is not able to use the thing unless they somehow protect it from freezing which is very difficult to impossible in northern/snowy climates. Also, for twice per day dosing, you have to traipse out to the thing to replenish the chemical in the housing how often?

I don't know how you get the housing apart without spilling chemical when the sump is upside down...

Plus it has aesthetics problems sticking up on the well casing out in the yard. maybe he could paint it green for lawn installations and tan for the sand belt.

I do like the powdered sanitizer and the constant timely dosing. Now IF you could get it inside the well casing, protected from freeze problems and say EASY once per month replenishing of the chemical... I could sell MANY of them.

How would you keep your powder dry and yet add a certain volume to a water stream and time that for twice per day application? How would you store a month's supply of powder? How would all that fit in a casing without a pitless? Would it fit 4" and larger casings, with or without a pitless? And only for submersible pumps since it would require electric power at the casing; IOWs jet pumps are out, unless they had a pitless.

If I think about this much more, I'll be losing sleep for the next few years.

 

[Sammyhydro11]

I wonder if this guy sells magnetic water softening kits along with his chlorinator?

SAM