Bladder tank dead?

Sorry I missed this one. I believe the 10 GPM pump has always been large enough to handle peak GPM demands if there has never been a problem with low or no pressure. So replacing the tank as is should be fine. I do not agree that pressurized storage is a good way to handle peak demands which are higher than peak GPM of the pump. In Murphy's house, which I and almost everyone else lives in, the pressure will inevitably be at 41 PSI with a 40/60 pressure switch when the peak demand happens. This means that your tank is effectively empty and the only water you will get is from the pump. If you lower the air pressure in the tank it will only delay the bladder hitting the bottom by a minute or so. Lowering the air pressure also reduces the available draw down from the tank, so the tank actually holds less water and causes more cycling. Pressurized storage can only help with peak demands for a few minutes, even if you are lucky enough for the tank to be full when the peak demand happens. Water stored before the pump is always available for peak demands. Water stored after the pump may not be there when you need it. The high pressure sure did not help things but, I believe that the two pressure switches and the bladder was destroyed from cycling on and off. I am amazed that the pump still works and I would be sticking back at least a couple of hundred a month for a new pump as it can't be in very good shape from all the cycling. A CSV would help because the new pump you are going to need will not be as good as the one you bought in 1993. With multiple houses, the CSV will reduce the number of cycles considerably. The CSV can also help when demand changes from moderate to peak. During moderate demands the pump has already come on and the CSV is holding pressure steady at 50 or 55 PSI, so the tank remains ½ or 3/4 full. The CSV will allow the pump to reach it's maximum out put while still holding 50 or 55 PSI. So if demand increases above the max out put of the pump, additional water is available to be expressed from the tank as the pressure drops to 40 PSI. This will help for a few minutes longer than if the tank were empty when peak demand happens, but I still believe pressurized storage is not a good way to handle peak demands which are higher than the max flow of the pump.

No, my problem has not been solved yet. We've discovered that the pressure tank is fine, and have sized the problem down to two faults. The check valve built into the pump leaking back, and an underground line leaking somewhere. Guess I cant complain after almost 14 years of use. We'll baby it along until after christmas, then I'll do what has to be done. Anyone have an opinion about rebuilding the original pumphead? I know it's expensive, but with a rebuild and a new motor, maybe I can get another 13 years out of it. I know someone who says that he can do it in just a few hours, and I don't think any replacement pump is going to last that long. I really dont have the patience to deal with all of this multispeed computerized junk the installers are trying to push at me.

If the pump is rebuildable, they will use new parts, not parts that were made 20 years ago. Just pick a name brand pump (and there are lots of them) that you can get for the best price. Worst thing they did to pumps is shorten the motor. If you want to make it last, oversize the motor by one notch (3/4 pump on a 1 HP motor) and most important, keep cycling to a minimum.

I couldn't get the same people who normally service my well and plumbing this time, and the firm that I contacted...when I asked about a csv system, he keeps trying to push towards a variable speed turbine type pump. I've had my fill with electronic crap. I'm on my fourth controller, and my third motor on my furnace, and I dont want to trust my well to the same fate. Someone else I know says that he can rebuild the original pump, and with the stainless housing and one piece shaft, it should outlast any new pump that I could buy today. He also says that depending on an electrical test, shaft and bearing condition, I might even be safe to reuse the original franklin motor. I'm just sort of up in the air here. When the original system was installed, I told the contractor that I wanted the best of everything that he could get, and I really want to keep it that way. The original pump is 1 hp, so if I rebuild, what would be the next step up in motor size? 1.5 hp maybe? Would it work with the same size wiring as the 1 hp?

You said Stainless housing? What brand pump is this? And built in checkvalve???

Buy a new pump. Your going to a lot of trouble and expense trying to reserect an already old pump. And the inside is probably all gunked up, like 99% of the pumps I work on are. This gunk can plug jets and impellers.

Besides, there isn't much to rebuild on a jet pump. We usually figure bearings last on average 7 years. We install new bearings twice. This is now 14 years. You are on borrowed time after the second rebuild.

bob...

I hear you about the electronic crap. Yes the 1.5 HP motor would work on the 1 HP pump. You will need a new starter box to fit the 1.5 HP but it will only pull a 1 HP load so the wire size does not need to be changed. New gut pack in the old pump housing, sure why not, long as the housing is good it is like a new pump. Reusing the old motor is iffy. Might last 20 years, might last 2 days, it is a crap shot. Remember that everything will last longer if you keep the cycling to a minimum.

speedbump said:

You said Stainless housing? What brand pump is this? And built in checkvalve???
bob...

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The pump is a Goulds model 10ej submersible 2 wire. I was under the impression that all of them had a built in check valve. Is this not right?

valveman said:

I hear you about the electronic crap. Yes the 1.5 HP motor would work on the 1 HP pump. You will need a new starter box to fit the 1.5 HP but it will only pull a 1 HP load so the wire size does not need to be changed. New gut pack in the old pump housing, sure why not, long as the housing is good it is like a new pump. Reusing the old motor is iffy. Might last 20 years, might last 2 days, it is a crap shot. Remember that everything will last longer if you keep the cycling to a minimum.

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I'm wondering if I'm calling out the army to shoot a rabbit, so to speak. It would be much simpler just to drop a new pump, but from what I've read, seems like the new ones just don't last. I'm just wondering if I would be gaining any ground by rebuilding the old one. Sorry to keep beating on the same dead horse. Just trying to learn here. Thank you all.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about a jet pump. My mistake.

Yes most of the subs are Stainless shell and have built in or external check valves.

bob...

I think your main concern should be that tank setup. I like to have all components on a well system that are bound to fail easily accessible. A burried tank that has failed in mid january cannont be dug up. I know it could be a little costly but my suggestion is to install a well pit to house a new holding tank. It would be a very wise investment on your part especially if you're supplying water to other peoples homes.

That 10 gallon per minute 1 h.p. pump will put out more than 10 gpm depending how deep its set in the well and also where the water level is when it starts .

Valveman is right,upgrading the size tanks is not going to make a difference with volume durring peak demands. Once that tank dumps then your being supplied with water being pumped from the well.

I strongly suggest a well pit or small size septic tank to house your tank and controls.

SAM

You could install that pit right where the existing tank is.

SAM

sammyhydro11 said:

You could install that pit right where the existing tank is.

SAM

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Believe me, I agree with you completely, however since the tank itself did test out fine, I will leave it as it is for now. When the time does come to replace the tank, I may either run another line from the well to a tank under my house, or I may look into an inground pit to house the tank and switch. From what I've read and been told, I know that this is a big no-no, but I'm wondering about putting in a check valve at the pitless adapter to prolong the useful life of the pump. I have been told that it will work, but I may have some water hammer when the pump starts and stops. Any ideas on this?

sammyhydro11 said:

That 10 gallon per minute 1 h.p. pump will put out more than 10 gpm depending how deep its set in the well and also where the water level is when it starts .

SAM

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Yes, actually the well tested at 12 gallons, (and after a 2 hour free flow even) just recently for a refinance.

Who did the test? Because what the pump is putting out for water and what the well produces are two different things. I would find out what that well produces for water because you could upgrade the size of the pump to meet the demand of three houses. It sounds to me like its producing more than 12 gallons per minute. I like to see atleast 7 to 10 gallons per minute for each home,at least. Again,i would put in that well pit instead of running another line. Much simpler and more practical than running another line back to your house 150' away. You can make that system easily accesable which could save you alot of problems if your supplying other families w/water.

You could put a check valve at the pitless for the time being. And i mean on the inside of the casing.

SAM

Sammy's right. You can put a check "at the pitless inside of the case" to see you through the winter. If the tank is good let it alone for now but when you do have to replace it check into a pit and a csv. Kep in mind that you might have some hammer when the pump starts and stops because of the pressure diff between the system and the drop pipe below the check. Use a spring check and not a swing valve.