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Thread: Gas water heater bonding

  1. #31
    DIY Member Stuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    There is no code reference to enforce the bonding of the hot to cold and as I pointed out in my last post to do so violates 250.104(A)(1)

    I am the code enforcement official in the city that I work and will turn you down using 250.104(A)(1) every time I see the hot bonded to the cold
    How does a piece of copper attached to the hot and cold pipes violate 250.104(A)(1)? The rule concerns bonding the water system to the GEC. Yes, this wire should not be called a system bonding jumper. It is intended for the continuity of the water pipe system which is not required as you pointed out, but it also is not prohibited.

  2. #32
    Jack of all trades DonL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuff View Post
    How does a piece of copper attached to the hot and cold pipes violate 250.104(A)(1)? The rule concerns bonding the water system to the GEC. Yes, this wire should not be called a system bonding jumper. It is intended for the continuity of the water pipe system which is not required as you pointed out, but it also is not prohibited.

    Good Stuff, Stuff. I have a stutter.


    I have seen the manufacture requirements in the Water Heater Service Manuals.

    Electric and gas water heaters should not be treated the same.

    Filament shorts and the like make bonding Electric heaters very important.

    With PVC in use, the electrical bonding of the whole system may not happen.

    Bonding and Grounding are two different things.

    If not done properly both can kill you.


    Are we confused yet ?
    Theory only works perfect in a vacuum.

    Cyber Security Protection for Windows C:\ > WWW.WinForce.Net

  3. #33
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuff View Post
    It is intended for the continuity of the water pipe system which is not required as you pointed out, but it also is not prohibited.
    Let’s take your post and answer it from last to first. It will make the explanation easier. No it is not prohibited to bond as many times as you want but each bond is required to follow the guidelines of 250.104(A)(1). If one desired one could install a bond to four different places on the metal piping system as long as each one landed on either of these; service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.

    If it is ones desire to maintain electrical continuity of the metal pipe then any conductor used for this purpose is a bonding jumper as defined by Article 100 of the NEC.
    Bonding Conductor or Jumper. A reliable conductor to ensure the required electrical conductivity between metal parts required to be electrically connected.

    So if the purpose is to have electrical continuity between the cold and hot metal water pipes then the conductor that is used for this purpose is required by Section 250.104(A)(1).

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuff View Post
    How does a piece of copper attached to the hot and cold pipes violate 250.104(A)(1)?
    Because in 250.104(A)(1) it mandates one of four places that a metal water piping system is allowed to bond at and another pipe is not one of them
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuff View Post
    The rule concerns bonding the water system to the GEC.
    Or the electrode, the neutral, or the service equipment
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuff View Post
    Yes, this wire should not be called a system bonding jumper.
    This is correct it is simply a bonding jumper. A system bonding jumper is defined as; Bonding Jumper, System. The connection between the grounded circuit conductor and the supply-side bonding jumper, or the equipment grounding conductor, or both, at a separately derived system.
    In most cases this will be the X0 terminal of a transformer.

  4. #34
    DIY Senior Member houptee's Avatar
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    “Article 250 is one of the most difficult and involved sections in the NEC,” said Michael Johnston, NECA executive director, standards and safety. “In particular, Section 250.4 outlines what is intended to be accomplished by grounding and bonding and the performance requirements regarding installation. The prescriptive requirements in Article 250 are much easier to understand and apply when the performance requirements are known.”


    - See more at: http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-s....GtH9KhvK.dpuf

  5. #35
    DIY Member Stuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    each bond is required to follow the guidelines of 250.104(A)(1).
    250.104(A)(1) is about bonding the metal water piping system to the GEC, etc. There is nothing in that section prohibiting any additional bonding, whether to the GEC or anywhere else. Is there a different section that prohibits other bonding? Essentially this would be bonding the metal water piping system to itself.

  6. #36
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuff View Post
    250.104(A)(1) is about bonding the metal water piping system to the GEC, etc. There is nothing in that section prohibiting any additional bonding, whether to the GEC or anywhere else. Is there a different section that prohibits other bonding? Essentially this would be bonding the metal water piping system to itself.
    250.104(A)(1) mandates the installation of bonding jumpers that are installed on metal water piping systems.
    250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
    (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
    (1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).

    In (A) it mandates that a bonding jumper be installed and that the place it lands on the metal pipe is to be accessible.
    In (1) it gives the four places that the other end of that bonding jumper has to land and another metal pipe is not outlined there.

    If a bonding jumper is installed for any reason one end must land on the pipe at an accessible location and the other end is required by this section to land either one of the four places outlined in (A)(1) but it does not mention another metal pipe anywhere now does it.

    It says that one end must land at an accessible place on the metal water pipe and the other end must land on the service panel, the neutral, the GEC if it is big enough or one of the 8 electrodes outlined in 250.52 but I can’t find where it says “or another metal water pipe”, can you.

    The use of the word “SHALL” found in both parts of 250.104(A)(1) means that this is a mandatory rule.
    90.5 Mandatory Rules, Permissive Rules, and Explanatory Material.
    (A) Mandatory Rules. Mandatory rules of this Code are those that identify actions that are specifically required or prohibited and are characterized by the use of the terms shall or shall not.
    It is not a permissive rule that allows another method.
    (B) Permissive Rules. Permissive rules of this Code are those that identify actions that are allowed but not required, are normally used to describe options or alternative methods, and are characterized by the use of the terms shall be permitted or shall not be required
    A bonding jumper installed on a metal water pipe for any reason must comply with 250.104(A)(1) and a Standard of Practice is not allowed.

  7. #37
    DIY Senior Member bluebinky's Avatar
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    I think the question is about whether or not "continuity jumpers" (not to be confused with bonding jumpers) can be used to maintain electrical continuity of metallic water piping, such as at a water heater.

    If I understand what JW is saying, any "jumper" on water piping is by code a "bonding jumper" and therefore must be between a pipe and a bonding point such as at the panel, etc.

    You can jumper an equipment ground such as more than one EMT going into a plastic box to maintain continuity, but not bonded pipes (according to JW's reading of the code).

    I don't see anywhere in the code that prohibits or allows "continuity jumpers" on water pipes, but the bonding part is quite clear.

    I've seen something in the plumbing code, but can't find it any more...
    Last edited by bluebinky; 01-15-2014 at 08:32 AM.

  8. #38
    DIY Member Stuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    In (A) it mandates that a bonding jumper be installed and that the place it lands on the metal pipe is to be accessible.
    In (1) it gives the four places that the other end of that bonding jumper has to land and another metal pipe is not outlined there.

    If a bonding jumper is installed for any reason one end must land on the pipe at an accessible location and the other end is required by this section to land either one of the four places outlined in (A)(1) but it does not mention another metal pipe anywhere now does it.
    I am not disputing that this a mandatory rule. I am questioning the interpretation going beyond the specific actions the rule requires.

    Once the water piping system is bonded as asked for in (A) the "SHALL" is met. Nothing in this section specifically requires or prohibits additional bonds. Adding an additional bond does not undo the original bond regardless of where it connects.

    In this section no where does it say "If a bonding jumper is installed for any reason..." Is that in a different section?

  9. #39
    DIY Member Stuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    I think the question is about whether or not "continuity jumpers" (not to be confused with bonding jumpers) can be used to maintain electrical continuity of metallic water piping, such as at a water heater.
    Hmm... Interesting idea as we are reviewing the wording, not the intent. Checking definition: Bonding Conductor or Jumper. A reliable conductor to ensure the required electrical conductivity between metal parts required to be electrically connected. Since your "continuity jumpers" are not required then they don't meet the definition of bonding jumper which helps the argument.

    Question is do they still perform the bonding function. Bonded (Bonding). Connected to establish electrical continuity and conductivity. If a system already has electrical continuity and conductivity then we are not establishing but are supplementing when adding a jumper. So a "continuity jumper" is bonding only if there is not already some other connection.

    Just trying to show that wording sometimes doesn't help. Lawyers (inspectors) interpret but judges (AHJ) validate or invalidate the interpretation.

  10. #40
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    I have seen some pretty determined people in my life but I have never seen someone so determined to prove their point so hard that they start making up names for the actions they are taking. Just what is a continuity jumper?

    I do hope that we all understand the difference between an electrical raceway and a water pipe.

    I have seen installations at water heaters where the installer would bond from the water pipes to the gas pipes. When CSST is being used to supply the appliance the instructions with the CSST pipe is very clear that this is a violation. The CSST pipe will require that the gas bond be at one of the four places outlined in 250.104(A)(1).

    The codes are written and adopted for a reason. The code sections go through scrutiny for a two year period before being written. We may not understand why they are written the way they are but that is not for the installer to understand but are for the installer to comply with.

    Once the water pipe is bonded it is in compliance but any other bond is still bound by the same rule as the original bond.

    A kitchen counter top is required to be supplied by no less than two small appliance 20 amp circuits. Using the notion that once a rule has been complied with means we can do whatever we desire would be saying that once these two circuits are installed I could now install a dozen 15 amps circuit to the counter top. I don’t think any of us would argue that this would be a violation but to prove ourself right we will stoop to trying to circumvent the rules elsewhere.

  11. #41
    DIY Senior Member houptee's Avatar
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    NEC version adoption by state map
    http://www.nema.org/Technical/FieldR...ical-Code.aspx

  12. #42
    DIY Senior Member Reach4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    I have seen some pretty determined people in my life but I have never seen someone so determined to prove their point so hard that they start making up names for the actions they are taking. Just what is a continuity jumper?
    Have you noticed that you are alone in your interpretation that a simple jumper between hot and cold water pipes at a water heater is forbidden even where not having a jumper is permissible?
    Last edited by Reach4; 01-15-2014 at 07:09 AM.

  13. #43
    DIY Senior Member bluebinky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    I have seen some pretty determined people in my life but I have never seen someone so determined to prove their point so hard that they start making up names for the actions they are taking. Just what is a continuity jumper?

    I do hope that we all understand the difference between an electrical raceway and a water pipe.

    I have seen installations at water heaters where the installer would bond from the water pipes to the gas pipes. When CSST is being used to supply the appliance the instructions with the CSST pipe is very clear that this is a violation. The CSST pipe will require that the gas bond be at one of the four places outlined in 250.104(A)(1).

    The codes are written and adopted for a reason. The code sections go through scrutiny for a two year period before being written. We may not understand why they are written the way they are but that is not for the installer to understand but are for the installer to comply with.

    Once the water pipe is bonded it is in compliance but any other bond is still bound by the same rule as the original bond.

    A kitchen counter top is required to be supplied by no less than two small appliance 20 amp circuits. Using the notion that once a rule has been complied with means we can do whatever we desire would be saying that once these two circuits are installed I could now install a dozen 15 amps circuit to the counter top. I don’t think any of us would argue that this would be a violation but to prove ourself right we will stoop to trying to circumvent the rules elsewhere.
    I was trying to prove my point. Now I am just trying to learn something. Yes, the term "continuity jumper" (notice the quotes) is a made up term, as you point out, to help me understand what you are saying.

    Now that you helped me realize that electrical raceways and water pipes are treated differently in terms of electrical continuity under the code, I am beginning to understand what you are saying.

    While reading the code, I don't see where maintaining electrical continuity of water pipes with clamps and wires is allowed, but I also still don't see where it is forbidden, but defer to your experience/interpretation/insight or whatever. Understanding the codes is not always easy. Thank you for pointing this out, and I will run it by my local inspector the next time he's out and watch him sweat
    Last edited by bluebinky; 01-15-2014 at 08:57 AM.

  14. #44
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    I was trying to prove my point. Now I am just trying to learn something. Yes, the term "continuity jumper" (notice the quotes) is a made up term, as you point out, to help me understand what you are saying.


    Now that you helped me realize that electrical raceways and water pipes are treated differently in terms of electrical continuity under the code, I am beginning to understand what you are saying.

    While reading the code, I don't see where maintaining electrical continuity of water pipes with clamps and wires is allowed, but I also still don't see where it is forbidden, but defer to your experience/interpretation/insight or whatever. Understanding the codes is not always easy. Thank you for pointing this out, and I will run it by my local inspector the next time he's out and watch him sweat
    I am not saying that maintaining electrical continuity is forbidden but should one decide to make any part of a metal piping system including gas pipes then every part they would like to make electrically continuous would be required by (1) below and is very clear where this jumper is to land. Notice the part that is underlined. It is clearly in print where any conductor installed on a metal pipe or set of metal pipes is to land. "SHALL BE BONDED TO" We are not allowed to stray from a mandatory rule in any way.

    What we must decide is if this is a complete metal water piping system. If it doesn’t have electrical continuity then it cannot be a complete metal piping system and then one would be allowed to use the equipment grounding conductor of the appliance that is “likely” to energize the pipes to bond the pipes.

    250.104(A)(1) Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used

  15. #45
    DIY Member Stuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    A kitchen counter top is required to be supplied by no less than two small appliance 20 amp circuits. Using the notion that once a rule has been complied with means we can do whatever we desire would be saying that once these two circuits are installed I could now install a dozen 15 amps circuit to the counter top. I don’t think any of us would argue that this would be a violation but to prove ourself right we will stoop to trying to circumvent the rules elsewhere.
    Good point. For your example there are rules elsewhere. For bonding a water heater no one has found any rules elsewhere.

    In your example the rules concerning small appliance 20amp circuits have phrases "SHALL BE PROVIDED FOR ALL" and "SHALL SERVE ALL" which sounds like they are there to prevent other options like additional 15amp circuits. The bonding section does not use the word "ALL" that I can find. Is there a rule elsewhere that covers it?

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