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Thread: Is this a "P" or "S" Trap or which is the better alternative?

  1. #16
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Referencing Tom Sawyer's post #5 -- my plan is to just put a long sweep 2 inch 90 where the sanitary T is shown and tie that into a Y combo that is sitting vertical.
    This way I can get my "P" trap in and a 1/4 to 1 slope prior to making the 90 degree bend downward. Don't personally like the short distance from the P trap exit to where
    the 90 makes it down turn.
    Absolutely PROHIBITED!

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    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 05-28-2012 at 07:07 AM.
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  2. #17
    Test, Don't Guess! cacher_chick's Avatar
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    You cannot have a 90 or a tee turning downward unless there is a vent prior to that point. You can use a 90 or 45 on it's side to move the connection further downstream.

    The trap should be low enough for the drain to be piped below the joists. As long as a vent is provided within the maximum allowed distance under your code, the main line connection can be made anywhere beyond that.
    Last edited by cacher_chick; 05-28-2012 at 07:23 AM.

  3. #18
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    quote; I hate to think that you are right about that

    The IPC is an "opportunist code". If someone wants to do something, usually all he has to do is ask and the code will be revised. As one columnist stated, "The IPC has more ways to 'wet vent' than any other code". As far as the original question is concerned, you can restate the situation as many ways as you want to, but we WILL NEVER tell you it is okay to "drop" into the main line without installing a vent first.
    Last edited by hj; 05-28-2012 at 08:04 AM.
    Licensed residential and commercial plumber

  4. #19
    DIY Member dw85745's Avatar
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    OK. Will abandon the 90 degree turn idea.
    Still don't get why the shower drain with the 90 is NOT considered vented, since the vent (wet) upstream on the branch line from the lav is within about 1 foot from the shower Y combo rising vertically to tie into the shower fixture arm?

    Add: Here's an example of a 90 degree drop (see picture on page 9) http://www.oboa.on.ca/events/2011/se.../files/211.pdf
    Any comment appreciated.

    ==========================


    So, general consensus is that if I can go with a Y (rotated upward at 45 degrees and a 45 attached to the P trap exit pipe rotated downward at 45, "I think" I can make the connection further downstream.
    Anyone see any problems with this (assume Tom Sawyer YES picture has the Y rotated Up on on the horizontal)?

    Again thanks all for their time and effort on my behalf.


    =================================

    Re Venting (For my edification can someone please explain why the 90 is not acceptable based on the below venting requirements it would be appreciated):

    909.1 Wet vent permitted.

    Any combination of fixtures within two bathroom groups located on the same floor level are permitted to be vented by a wet vent. The wet vent shall be considered the vent for the fixtures and shall extend from the connection of the dry vent along the direction of the flow in the drain pipe to the most downstream fixture drain connection to the horizontal branch drain. Only the fixtures within the bathroom groups shall connect to the wet–vented horizontal branch drain. Any additional fixtures shall discharge downstream of the wet vent.

    911.1 Circuit vent permitted.

    A maximum of eight fixtures connected to a horizontal branch drain shall be permitted to be circuit vented. Each fixture drain shall connect horizontally to the horizontal branch being circuit vented. The horizontal branch drain shall be classified as a vent from the most downstream fixture drain connection to the most upstream fixture drain connection to the horizontal branch.
    Last edited by dw85745; 05-28-2012 at 02:21 PM.

  5. #20
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    You are looking at the pictures wrong.
    That is a horizontal wye and a 45
    You can also look at it, and think it's a 90 bend about six inches higher then the main line, but it's not!

    Rotating the wye up to a 45 doesn't work either, unless it's vented above the 45. You can't vent below the trap, which is what happens when you roll the fitting.
    You can roll a fitting and vent the "highest" part. Not the lowest part.

  6. #21
    DIY Member dw85745's Avatar
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    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/atta...0&d=1338214054

    Terry: From the YES picture I think I see what you mean.
    Let me confirm please.

    The Wye is on it side with the 45 at the same level as the Wye outlet.
    The "P" trap weir appears to be slightly above center line of the 45 in order to obtain the "1/4 to 1" required slope.

    So I ASSUME I should consider the center line of 2 inch branch pipe to its top to be the vent area.
    Using the - rule - that:

    "The bottom of the pipe at the trap weir may Not be higher than the top of the pipe at the vent opening"

    should keep one out of trouble.
    So if I run a string line from the top of the branch pipe to the trap weir and make sure the bottom is not higher
    than I should be OK ? Is this CORRECT ?

    =============

    COMMENT: I guess the code makes this presumption (example):
    Using the wet vent from the lav with a San-Tee at its end and the vent located on top of the San-Tee, its easy to
    see how the vertical pipe gets vented. However since the fixture arm slopes downward gas IMHO could collect there.
    The code must ASSUME (??) the pipe will never be full with water, hence that any gas will escape from the fixture arm by the draft
    of the vertical pipe pulling it out even though we have a downward slope.
    Last edited by dw85745; 05-30-2012 at 06:48 AM.

  7. #22
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    Hey Terry, we should get a consulting fee for teaching plumbing 101
    [B]No, plumbing ain't rocket science. Unlike rocket science, plumbing requires a license[B]

  8. #23
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    quote; So, general consensus is that if I can go with a Y (rotated upward at 45 degrees and a 45 attached to the P trap exit pipe rotated downward at 45, "I think" I can make the connection further downstream.

    The "genereal consensus" is that you do "NOT GET IT". You CANNOT "roll" ANYTHING downward UNTIL you have gone past the vent connection. When I worked in a grocery store a lady complained about spoiled milk even though her table was only 2' from the refrigerator. We told her that the milk had to be IN the refrigerator if she did not want it to spoil. You are the same way with your vent. It may be only 1' away from the connection, but it has absolutely NO effect or bearing on your shower drain IF you are "dropping it" into the line.

    Citing the paragraphs on venting is only beneficial when you understand what they are saying. Your postings so far indicate that this is not the case.
    Licensed residential and commercial plumber

  9. #24
    DIY Member dw85745's Avatar
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    Your postings so far indicate that this is not the case.
    I don't disagree a little knowledge is dangerous. Hence climbing the learning curve on drainage.
    As Terry pointed, looking at a drawing can be misunderstood UNLESS the viewer understands what's behind that drawing.
    Also reading code can also leaves one guessing --based on forum posts different people interpret the code differently.
    So bear with me!!
    FWIW, I did find some white papers on the history of UPC codes which discuss some of this conflict. Will try and post
    as most probably of interest to you at your level.

    ==================

    The area I'm struggling with most is where the venting is in relationship to the drainage.
    If you can vent a branch line using one vertical vent tied in at the end of the branch

    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/atta...0&d=1338214054

    then the only thing I can figure out is that the vent must be considered to extend though out the
    entire branch drain from the branches center line to the top of the branch pipe. Since the branch line slopes
    upward toward the end of the line where the vent goes vertical, gases will move in that direction.

    Based on Terry post, my ASSUMPTION is that you then apply the rule (for every fixture arm -- shower and toilet in my case)

    "The bottom of the pipe at the trap weir may Not be higher than the top of the pipe at the vent opening"

    ///////////// QUESTIONS

    1)
    ASSUMING I'm correct regarding the horizontal venting --OR -- do I have it WRONG again?
    (this is a question not a defensive statement) If Wriong, please explain why?

    2)
    Where does one consider the trap weir for the toilet (from a vent perspective)?
    Once the line leaves the toilet "S" trap and goes vertically down, and then runs
    horizontal from the closest bend into the horizontal branch line -- how are gases routed (vented) with only
    the vertical vent at the end of the branch line???




    Hey Terry, we should get a consulting fee for teaching plumbing 101
    Probably so.

    ====================
    Here the white papers:

    Appears they are too big to upload. Will try and locate the web links to access.
    Last edited by dw85745; 05-30-2012 at 08:04 AM. Reason: Add White Papers

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