Do I need a softener?

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Tom Sawyer

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You are a very insulting little fellow. You wish to engage me yet again in pointless argument over a subject that you clearly do not have enough knowledge about in order to make a cojent argument. As for wanting folks to think I know more than I do my friend, you are the default master of that venue. You are quite mistaken in thinking that you can or will bait me into anymore of this pointlless twaddle, nor will I sink to your level of insulting behavior. You apparently have a problem with the Fleck 7000 series and that's fine. I understand that not everybody is necessarily enamored with certain products. We get it. Your stance on that product is documented and noted as is your rabid desire to save a bag and a half of salt every year. So........enjoy your evening, maybe you can find someone else to harass for a change because we've all heard it all before and frankly.........Could care less what you think.
 
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ditttohead

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3/4" pipe will flow 17 gpm at 50 psi but that will greatly exceed 8 gpm FPS flow velocity. 3/4" pipe should not exceed 11 GPM. A 1" pipe will flow approximately 18 GPM at 8 FPS.
Velocities exceeding 9 FPS can cause vibration, noise, etc.

The 7000 valve allows you a higher peak flow which will technically exceed the resin manufacturers maximum flow recommendations. These maximum flow recommendations are to ensure that their media will perfom as the charts show. Exceeding the 5 GPM per Cu. ft. of resin will produce a higher hardness bleed by. In all reality, this is not a real concern except when water quality is critical. If we were to go by these numbers, your system size would have to be a 2.0 cu. ft. system to achieve 17 gpm, and only the 7000 valve is going to do that. Please see the purolite link if you want more details. http://www.purolite.com/Customized/CustomizedControls/Products/Resources/rid_62.pdf

Another calculation is not even being considered here and shouldnt be, but... continuous peak vs instantaneous peak are also different calculations that could be brought up but lets not. These are reserved for commercial applications where, on rare occassion, an excessive amount of water may be used for less than 1-2 minutes, vs 30 or more. Peak is considered in the 30 minute range.

To wrap this up, for residential and commercial applications where water quality of less than 17.1 ppm of total hardness is acceptable, a flow rate exceeding 5 GPM per cu. ft. on a rare occassion is acceptable. Water flow exceeding 5 gpm per sq. ft. will cause additional hardness leakage, and if it is done continuously, it will damage the resin over time. Systems must be sized to handle the actual maximum usage of the application, but assuming that not all the fixtures will be used at the same time on a regular basis, you can use the peak flow rate rating, that is why it is included in every water softener manufacturers charts. If we used only the flow rate of the media, that would mean that every 2 cubic foot gac system that has been installed with pre chlorine injection could only have a flow rate never to exceed 3.9 GPM, considering the manufacturers specification of 5 GPM per Square foot. See the attached link for exact specifications. http://www.clackcorp.com/downloads/...edia/catalytic_high_activated_carbon_2872.pdf

Please ask questions respectfully if you have any. I am always willing to be shown that I am wrong. I enjoy being corrected since it allows my knowledge to grow. Dont take being corrected as a personal attack take it as a chance to get better at what you do. I do these calculations all day long, it is what I do. I size residential, commercial, and industrial water systems for a living. I am currently working on a 2000 cu. ft gac system for a small municipality, and I am designing a 1/4 cu. ft. softener to fit inside of an espresso cart with extremely limited space. The experience available from the people on this sight is vast, the suggestions have been great, and I have learned a lot from several people here. Lets keep the dialogue professional and respectful if possible.
 

Tom Sawyer

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The difference my friend is that most of us here consider each other to be colleagues not combatants. Thanks for your post above also, I honestly am tired of repeating the same things over and over so I let the whole thing pass by. Truth is, 99% of homeowners don't give a crap about the technicalities of the system. When you start explaining SFR and K capacity etc, their eyes glaze over. What they care about is consistently good water, as little maintenance as possible and reasonable operating cost. Perhaps we need a Pro's only section where we can all argue and bash each other at will, but I suspect there would only be one guy posting LOL
 

ditttohead

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Thanks Tom, homeowners want a system that works without fail, gives great water quality, and wastes as little water, salt, or other consumables as possible. That is why I sell the 7000 so much, it has the highest peak flow rate, so if a dealer accidentaly slightly undersizes the unit, the homeowner will never know. By using a high grade quality resin, a high flowing controller, the problems that were common in the past have been virtually eliminated. The mega houses that are so common in certain areas of the country have really made a lot of problems for people using smaller control valves, since once a month, the demand will exceed the systems peak, and a sudden pressure drop occurs in the house. This has been almost elimniated with the 7000. Since it costs almost the same as a 5600, why not use it whenever possible? There is no disadvantage to it other than its size. Even so, the 90 degree adapters take care of that problem.

I have the new 5800SXT in hand, this has a fairly good flow rate, not as good as the 7000, but much better than the 5600. It is simple, but the price is still in question. I have it on my test bench and will update anyone who cares.
 

Gary Slusser

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You are a very insulting little fellow. You wish to engage me yet again in pointless argument over a subject that you clearly do not have enough knowledge about in order to make a cojent argument. As for wanting folks to think I know more than I do my friend, you are the default master of that venue. You are quite mistaken in thinking that you can or will bait me into anymore of this pointlless twaddle, nor will I sink to your level of insulting behavior. You apparently have a problem with the Fleck 7000 series and that's fine. I understand that not everybody is necessarily enamored with certain products. We get it. Your stance on that product is documented and noted as is your rabid desire to save a bag and a half of salt every year. So........enjoy your evening, maybe you can find someone else to harass for a change because we've all heard it all before and frankly.........Could care less what you think.
Ahhhh there ya go getting all emotional again and personal.

You should study what Dittohead said.

He's saying the same thing I am with an exception of the 7000 being the only valve (which is not true)... and that over 17.1 ppm (1 gpg) of hardness is OK with most residential folks.

I can say it isn't OK because I've sold a lot of softeners to DIYers with hardness leakage due to their old softener being undersized for their peak demand flow rate.

I don't know that he has recently spoken to a DIYer that recently bought a softener based on your type advice of a 24K or 32K and has a gpg or more of hardness in his water. He certainly hasn't sold them equipment from what he has said here.

He gets more technical than I do. I don't get very technical because, based on me being online communicating with people online and personally on the phone or through email since Jan 1997, the average person that posts in a forum or the old usenet groups for advice doesn't need or want a lot of techno speak, just a simple explanation they can grasp.

He also doesn't identify who it is he is replying to, he's from overly PC California ya see and wanting to kiss up to most everyone but me I'm thinking but, still, he is saying what I said but in a much more technical way. Trust me, although I don't know if you realize it, he's taking you to school, and it isn't the first time, he just doesn't mention your name. He may mistakenly think he's taking me to school too

So go get all emotional with him now.

As to the 7000, my position is that is is over kill for many residential softeners, and it isn't all that easy for a DIYer to work on his or her self. Did I ever tell ya about the 2 4' 3" spinster twin sisters I sold to down in FL that, with the help of a step ladder, assembled, installed and programmed their softener? They put it outside in the yard along side the house. They sent me pictures and then a follow up a few months later raving about their soft water and the softener and how grateful they were for me telling them I thought they could do it themselves (with my help on the phone if needed). Never heard from them since. That was about 2005 I think.

AKdspvan... (and Dittohead) your figures for the gpm a 3/4" or 1" straight 50' pipe delivers at 30 and 50 pis (or average 40 psi) are a bit lower than a IIRC plumbing.org chart I have somewhere on my computer that I'm not going to go look up.

Now I used to have a gpm meter and gauge rig for testing well pumps, drop pipe and plumbing in real time on site. There was no arguing with it.

There's also no arguing with over the last 25 years larger houses being built up until the real estate market took a dive in 2007 or so. Many of my customers had 2.5 to 4.5 bathrooms (my record is a 6.5 bath, with two master bath showers with body sprays and two full kitchens with 9 people living there) with larger tubs with no mixing valves and up to 6 body sprays in two person showers. And those people, or a family of two, do not want 1 gpg or more hardness left in their softened water.

Most people also told me they used the washing machine most every day at various times and did 2 loads or more at a time every other day or so, the dishwasher, the large shower and a shower for the kids most every morning at the same time. And that 'she' liked to take a bubble bath in their HUGE jetted tub while doing a load of laundry on a Sunday afternoon while he was ignoring her while watching NASCAR, football or golf etc. etc..

Dittohead, BTW, you are right about the 8ft/sec but most home owners have never heard of it. MY guess is that plumbers don't pay much attention to it. Especially in remodeling an older smaller house when adding a dreamy new master bath.

And I always used a constant SFR of a couple gallons/minute less than you've mentioned. I used Cybron Chemical's C-246 for many years and then Purolite C-100, and at times SST-60.
 

Gary Slusser

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The difference my friend is that most of us here consider each other to be colleagues not combatants. Thanks for your post above also, I honestly am tired of repeating the same things over and over so I let the whole thing pass by. Truth is, 99% of homeowners don't give a crap about the technicalities of the system. When you start explaining SFR and K capacity etc, their eyes glaze over. What they care about is consistently good water, as little maintenance as possible and reasonable operating cost. Perhaps we need a Pro's only section where we can all argue and bash each other at will, but I suspect there would only be one guy posting LOL
DIYers thinking of buying online are a different breed of prospective customer, and you have said you have no experience with any of them or it.

Yet here you are in a DIYer forum going on and on about something you have no knowledge about or experience, same as Dittohead actually, maybe Mialynette2003 and AKpsdvan too, while previously saying here, in a private (trades only) forum where you were very openly anti DIY.
 

Gary Slusser

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Thanks Tom, homeowners want a system that works without fail, gives great water quality, and wastes as little water, salt, or other consumables as possible.
That's correct.

That is why I sell the 7000 so much, it has the highest peak flow rate, so if a dealer accidentaly slightly undersizes the unit, the homeowner will never know.
That's a big reason why there are so many people that distrust dealers and their sales and service personnell.

I'd rather you teach your dealers/plumbers how to properly size a softener, and I'll bet that many DIYers here would too.


By using a high grade quality resin, a high flowing controller, the problems that were common in the past have been virtually eliminated.
The 2510 and Clack valves flow more than high enough to accomplish the same BS effect.

The mega houses that are so common in certain areas of the country have really made a lot of problems for people using smaller control valves, since once a month, the demand will exceed the systems peak, and a sudden pressure drop occurs in the house. This has been almost elimniated with the 7000.
Using a smaller volume of resin and in a smaller tank causes the same problem and more frequently than once a month. And covering it up with a larger flow control valve is simply not right. You are shorting your dealers' customers instead of teaching the dealer how to correctly size a softener for the peak demand flow rate of how the family lives in their house and uses their fixtures.

And you say you are all for preventing the bad PR the industry has. Shame on you Alan.

I have the new 5800SXT in hand, this has a fairly good flow rate, not as good as the 7000, but much better than the 5600. It is simple, but the price is still in question. I have it on my test bench and will update anyone who cares.
I wonder why Fleck would come out with a new higher flow control than the 5600 but not as high as the 7000... My guess is it is to compete with the Clack WS-1 and fill a notch below the 7000.

I mentioned this to my wife now and she suggests I start selling the 5800SXT. Between you'n me, that is a huge green light to me going back in business! We are planning leaving here, SW AZ, in about 2 weeks and going back east some to hunker down for TSHTF soon, and additional income would be helpful. We're thinking of a new motor home and full size 4x4 pickup truck with a nice cap on it. I could save the money and become a consultant though and go fishing on my off days...
 

ditttohead

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The flow chart numbers I am using are slightly conservative since I do not want to make a half dozen charts differntiating between copper types K, L, M, of PVC sche, 80, 40, or galvanized pipe, etc. The flow charts I use are intentionally conservative to simplify field calculations. As to the DIY... not much different than personally training dozens of 18 year olds who have never heald a screwdriver. I had to walk them through every aspect of the installation, programming, repair, maintenance, etc as the manager of one of the largest water treatment companies in Calfornia. I still hold training seminars several times a year, ranging from the highly skilled companies wanting to get into Pharmeceutical systems qualifications, to the regional dealers who have only sold water filters and want to start selling whole house. I think my 25 years of continuing feild work qualify me well enough.

I am not "schooling" anyone. And if anyone here is "unschoolable" then why are you in water treatment and not designing rockets? I spent half my day trying to cause errors in the new Fleck valve, I have torn it apart at least 10 times already, I have tried to come up with every scenario that could cause a problem and I am writing a detailed report before I go home today. I have done this with every valve Fleck and Clack and Autotrol has ever manufactured.

That being said, the 7000 is one of the easiest valves to service and maintain. It has far fewer potential problems than the 5600 series, it has fewer parts, and if you know how to take the drive train off, it is much quicker and easier to maintain than other valves. It also has some safety devices built in that other valves are lacking which makes it a better valve for the DIY'er since it is less likely they will get injured by accidentaly taking the valve apart under pressure.

Lastly, hardness leakage is based on the resin capacity/flow rate, peak flow is based on the systems ability to flow regardless of water quality. I have major companies purchasing systems that they know are way undersized technically, but the peak flow rate is so rarely a concern that they just want to make sure that the customers never see a pressure drop. Hardness leakage of 1 GPG is not a real rpoblem and is almost never noticed when somebody flushes 1 more toilet and the flow exceeds the recommended maximum flow rate for 40 seconds. The 7000 virtually eliminates the scenario of the mega shower being turned on, a toilet being flushed, and the dishwasher running, oops, we have no water pressure.

Now... that being said, I have also seen a 1 cubic foot softener feeding a 10,000 Sq. Ft. house with 8 bathrooms. They had it in for 14 years without a complaint.

Largest house I have done, Aaron Speeling, 56,600 sq. ft. his mansion had a 10 cubic foot softener.

Walter Lantz, many years ago, huge house in Hollywood, 6 bathrooms, with a 1 cu. ft. Autotrol 155 valve, which was upgraded from an Erie 541.

The owner of the California Speedway, whole house RO with calcite neutralizer, what a waste of water! 12 bathrooms, 4000 GPD RO,

Owner of Park International, large house, 1.5 Cu. Ft. 5600

Owner of Topway Global, 2 softeners, a 4 Cu. Ft. 2900NXT, and a 3 cu. ft. 2850NXT

etc...

Sybron C-249... lol, who owns them this week. It was a great resin many years ago. C100E, decent resin, we use it for our low grade systems still. SST-60, great resin, but like the vortech tank, probably more marketing than real. Their claims have always been hard to reproduce consistently in the lab.
 

Tom Sawyer

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My thanks to everyone that has participated in this thread but fella's........this horse has been beaten so many times we're down to dry bones. It's like, everybody's talking but ain't nobody listening. Still though, it has been humorous. Thanks for the laughs.
 

Gary Slusser

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LOL comparing 18 year old service tech etc. trainees to DIYers!!

I'm thinking that until you and 'Tom' et al talk to a few hundred DIYers and answer the same number of their emails and posts in forums etc., you won't know what those people want to know or how capable they are at DIY projects. Or how good their BS detectors are honed.

Plus the fact that they have researched the internet and most that I've talked to over the last 15 years have already spoken to 2-3 local dealers and/or salespeople or a service guy or two about their current softener or the one they want to buy now for their new, or new to them, first house.

So ya think I and my future DIYer customers might like that new 5800SXT huh. hummmm I could be open for business Monday and Tuesday and take the rest of the week off. I still get 5-10 people a week contacting me after being out of business for like 22 months now....
 

ditttohead

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Good luck getting the 5800SXT, and... dont be surprised if Fleck goes the way of Clack on their new valve line starting with the 5800SXT. It is in very limited production right now, and only a few people will have access to any quantities.

I also prefer to rename semi anonymous, so please refrain from using my name on this site. I will ask only once.

Like Tom said, this horse has been dead for a long time. maybe we could reclassify it as "living impaired". No matter what anyones experience, knowledge, training, schooling, education, years of service, certifications, licences, etc, nobody will ever be as good as...
 

Gary Slusser

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as... YOU!

Yeah all that going on about you didn't care if people knew who you are and anyone could find out who you are... Tom, NHMaster, and all the other fake names he's used said the same thing "anybody can find my name" blah blah blah..., Google could only find one article by you. And now you don't want anyone, or is it just me, using your first name. What fakes you two are. BTW, does the E. stand for Egotistical or Egotist, or, just Exceptional?

index.php


If as you say this horse is dead, I guess you two are still beating it and expecting different results?
 
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Chevy427

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as... YOU!

Yeah all that going on about you didn't care if people knew who you are and anyone could find out who you are... Tom, NHMaster, and all the other fake names he's used said the same thing "anybody can find my name" blah blah blah..., Google could only find one article by you. And now you don't want anyone, or is it just me, using your first name. What fakes you two are. BTW, does the E. stand for Egotistical or Egotist, or, just Exceptional?

If as you say this horse is dead, I guess you two are still beating it and expecting different results?

Aren't personal attacks against forum rules?
 

Rjh2o

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Wow Gary, for someone that is suppose to be retired you certainly are stressed! Perhaps you need to find a hobby to chill out.
RJ2O
 

Akpsdvan

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Any one seen the person that started this thread?
Or does any one remember what the question was with out going to the first post?

Once again another thread killed at the hands of "I am Right and every one else is Wrong"

Any one notice the last number of threads have turned in to who is right and knows more than helping the person posting the first question?
 

Tom Sawyer

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LOL comparing 18 year old service tech etc. trainees to DIYers!!

I'm thinking that until you and 'Tom' et al talk to a few hundred DIYers and answer the same number of their emails and posts in forums etc., you won't know what those people want to know or how capable they are at DIY projects. Or how good their BS detectors are honed.

Nope, dont' talk to DIY'ers on the phone or by email or forum. folks PM me here and other places all the time asking me to sell them stuff....I don't and won't. Don't need to, don't want to. Does that mean that I am somehow less qualified to deal with water filtration? (see how you make inferences and then try desperately to make other folks believe your convoluted logic?) Over the years I'd bet I have sold probably twice as much equipment than you have and moreover, unlike you, I have installed it and serviced it. You make answering questions sound like rocket science. ANYONE with a computer and ******* can answer questions. Anyone that can read a troubleshooting chart can answer questions.
But, this is maybe the 50th time or so that you have beaten that horse LOL


Plus the fact that they have researched the internet and most that I've talked to over the last 15 years have already spoken to 2-3 local dealers and/or salespeople or a service guy or two about their current softener or the one they want to buy now for their new, or new to them, first house.

The single BIGGEST reason they ended up dealing with you is PRICE and price alone. They come to you (anhd other online dealers) because they don't want to pay full price for the equipment and they don't want to pay for the installation. Now before you start claiming that I'm anti DiY again (that horse is nothing more than bone dust) I have no issue at all with foks installing their own equipment and the fact that I sit here and answer their questions is proof enough for most LOGICAL thinking folks but......go ahead and take another whack at the poor horse LOL

So ya think I and my future DIYer customers might like that new 5800SXT huh. hummmm I could be open for business Monday and Tuesday and take the rest of the week off. I still get 5-10 people a week contacting me after being out of business for like 22 months now....

You announce that as if expecting everyone to argue with you or talk you out of it. By all means, hang the sign and open for business. I truly wish you the very best and hope that Fleck does not shut you down like Clack did LOL
 

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At 9 grains per gallon, I would not run to a softener. City water here in San Diego is 14. I have never had a softener, although lots of folks do. We have simple undersink single cartridge filter for drinking water, and and same for icemaker. Clothes washer works fine, showers are fine. Yes, the is some mineral deposits in the wh, and on fixtures if you don't wipe them down. We just like it this way.
 

Tom Sawyer

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Aren't personal attacks against forum rules?

Depends on who makes them LOL but before anyone gets outraged you should know that I really don't care. I find it entertaining and a bit humerus as I'm sure many of you folks do too. It's a bit like watching a child throw a tantrum in Wal-Mart....Hard to look away. does make a mess of the thread though no doubt.
 

Tom Sawyer

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as... YOU!

Yeah all that going on about you didn't care if people knew who you are and anyone could find out who you are... Tom, NHMaster, and all the other fake names he's used said the same thing "anybody can find my name" blah blah blah..., Google could only find one article by you. And now you don't want anyone, or is it just me, using your first name. What fakes you two are. BTW, does the E. stand for Egotistical or Egotist, or, just Exceptional?

I know his first and last name and where he lives as well but unlike you, I respect his privacy. Another dead horse issue that you seem unable to grasp. Some of us worry about unstable folks perhaps showing up on our door steps. As you don't have a door step, it's pretty easy for you to say anything you want, but again, this has all been explained to you in great detail but you refuse to either comprehend or more likely care about other folks wishes. I suggest you either let this one go for good or start complaining that 90% of the moderators on this site don't publish their names or their personal addresses either. Your behavior in this matter can only be described a crass and rude. Dealing with kids all day I often wonder where many of their behaviors stem from but honestly, I have a pretty good idea.
 
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Gary Slusser

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Nope, dont' talk to DIY'ers on the phone or by email or forum. folks PM me here and other places all the time asking me to sell them stuff....I don't and won't. Don't need to, don't want to. Does that mean that I am somehow less qualified to deal with water filtration? (see how you make inferences and then try desperately to make other folks believe your convoluted logic?)
It means what I said, you don't have any experience with DIYers and do not understand what motivates them.

ANYONE with a computer and ******* can answer questions. Anyone that can read a troubleshooting chart can answer questions.
You have both but don't do well here answering questions.

The single BIGGEST reason they ended up dealing with you is PRICE and price alone. They come to you (anhd other online dealers) because they don't want to pay full price for the equipment and they don't want to pay for the installation. Now before you start claiming that I'm anti DiY again (that horse is nothing more than bone dust) I have no issue at all with foks installing their own equipment and the fact that I sit here and answer their questions is proof enough for most LOGICAL thinking folks but......go ahead and take another whack at the poor horse LOL
National figures show 80+% of Americans have internet service. Research shows that more than 80% go online to research products they are interested in or wanting to buy.

Many millions of them then buy those products online. The biggest reason they do that is based on convenience and the time it saves them, and many will pay more for the product because of the convenience but, most price shop too.

Most people that contacted me and bought from me did so based on my posts that you and others whined about for years. The vast majority told me why they bought from me instead of another online dealer, or the local dealers or plumbers or drillers they had out to their house before getting online and finding my posts.

Now I'll leave you to come up with whatever reason you think they gave me but I'll bet ya get it wrong; as you have by saying it was the price. Hint... it's a five letter word but it ain't price although the online price comparison to a local dealer or plumber was mentioned frequently but... that price from a dealer or plumber is why many got online but it was not the most important reason, or why they contacted me and bought from me.

Actually I told them they were grossly unfair in comparing online pricing to local dealers etc. because we didn't have the overhead they had. And we passed the savings on to them while keeping our prices low because we were in tough competition with all other online dealers. And it was very easy for them to compare our prices while it was very difficult and time consuming to compare local prices because they couldn't get a price without having a salesperson or crack showin' plumber come out to the house first!

BTW, a fair percentage of my customers had a plumber do their installation. Most, although I strongly advised against it, had that plumber do the assembly also. I actually suggested using a plumber for the installation if I thought it was something the prospective customer couldn't handle.

I spent many an hour on the phone with know it all plumbers with questions or problems because they would not follow my instructions.
 
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