Pumping uphill

Wally Hays said:

As far as I know there are only three that are in common use. IPC, UPC NSPC but you are misunderstanding how it works.

There are no nationally accepted codes. The codes are written by various organizations and then adopted by the individual states.

I have no clue why you want to call them national codes, they are not.

But you may as well keep on believing and incorrectly telling everyone your opinion because you are never wrong.

https://terrylove.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?26-Plumbing-Code-Questions

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I didn't ask you anything about how anything works.

I did ask you if there is 5-6 codes and talk of another one.

You didn't answer me but launch into how I don't know this or that and tell me I'm wrong to use the word national.

I see you mention the NSPC.

From Terry's link I found;
Forum: NSPC Plumbnig Code

Questions about hte National Standard Plumbing Code

It seems that the N in your NSPC stands for NATIONAL.

How about the I in IPC? Does that stand for interNATIONAL?

And since all the US States across the nation (that kinda says national huh) can choose to use any of the 5-6 codes, that's national to me and I think it means the same to those that put national in the name of the code.

ballvalve said:

..., as the flow in PVC is well established and not contested anywhere. Hundreds of calculators and charts on line, do a few and average it out.

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Your 8 psi is contested and everywhere I look I find the friction loss is 1.72 psi per 100' of 1" sch 40 PVC without calculating any loss for fittings. And that is not counting the 120' elevation.

You don't average friction loss, you add it up and size the pump accordingly.

zl700 said:

Thats not true, since the ends cause turbulance, even a 1/2" cc coupling has a loss factor.

All fittings, open valves, couplings have a loss factor to calculate head/friction, guess the code book doesn't know that either.

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OMG!!!! you're telling a MASTER plumber with 40 years experience that has been plumbing since he was 16 (read knows EVERYTHING), that he doesn't know something! I'm proud of you, and you're right., all fittings and every foot of pipe has a friction loss. Easily found on any of the charts etc. that ballvalve mentioned.

Ok then, find me the chart that lists friction loss for a PVC coupling. You can't because the loss is so minimal that it is never ever figured in calculations. Furthermore, if you take the time to properly fit and glue a PVC coupling and then cut it apart laterally you will find no obstruction, ledge, ridge or otherwise that would reduce flow in any manner whatsoever.

Here's a link to Charlotte Plastic's PDF for PVC pipe http://www.charlottepipe.com/Documents/PL_Tech_Man/Charlotte_Plastics_Tech_Manual.pdf
Note that on page 45 where the friction loss through fittings chart is located, there is not entry for couplings.

Sorry but you need to do a bit more research there. Again, find me the co-efficient of friction loss for a pvc coupling. And thanks for the plug. I appreciate it. Next.......

Gary Slusser said:

I didn't ask you anything about how anything works.

No ya didn't. What you did do was to incorrectly assert that there were 5 or 6 national codes and mabye a 7th when in fact, there are none.

I did ask you if there is 5-6 codes and talk of another one.

You didn't answer me but launch into how I don't know this or that and tell me I'm wrong to use the word national.

What's to answer? There are no National Codes. How much clearer do I need to be here?

I see you mention the NSPC.

From Terry's link I found;
Forum: NSPC Plumbnig Code

Questions about hte National Standard Plumbing Code

It seems that the N in your NSPC stands for NATIONAL.

How about the I in IPC? Does that stand for interNATIONAL?

And since all the US States across the nation (that kinda says national huh) can choose to use any of the 5-6 codes, that's national to me and I think it means the same to those that put national in the name of the code.

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They could have just as well put North American code on the title. It means nothing. Anymore than the IPC is really International. Very few countries use the IPC. How about the Universal Plumbing Code. Hell, it's universal so it must cover the whole dam universe LOL Next....................

zl700 said:

Your forgetting IRC, with its plumbing section that is attempting to roll all together

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The IRC is published by the same folks that publish the IPC. Most of the plumbing section is word for word though the IRC deals with residential plumbing code not commercial. We are required to have a copy of both here. And let's not forget the National Mechanical Code along with NFPA and the National fuel Gas code. Buying the requisite code books will set you back 500 bucks or so in this state.

Pressure loss in 1200' of 1" schd 40 is 8 to 8.9 psi depending on what friction choices you make. 120' of head is 52 psi. A FW 4f05s05 1/2 hp 15 stage pump gives him the ability to pressurize a tank at the house. A lesser stage pump would allow up to 12GPM and more with 0 psi outlet.

I would hope he is using 20' sticks with integral tapered couplers. No need for any loss calculation there, especially if the pipe is orientated to flow

He could use straight lengths of sch 40 and regular couplings also. There is virtually no restriction through a glue coupling. Now if he threads the pipe, thats a whole different kettle of fish. Also, regardless of the pipe size or length of run and the fact that mathematically it is possible to have so much resistance that water should not flow, it will anyway. Kind of like that bumble bee not being able to fly thing.

Wallyworld, thanks for mentioning all those additional codes I couldn't remember, I think we're over 7 now. BTW, I recall someone saying that none agree with the others... and yet National means National.

And, I see you can get away from your code books and into real data on friction loss but, 2500/20' lengths of sch 40 pvc says 125 couplers. Each will cause currents and that causes a pressure loss, especially when there are 125 of them.

ballvalve.... where do you come up with the 1200' you repeatedly mention? The OP said:
pumping uphill

I have a spring that sits 2500 ft away with a vertial drop of 120 ft.

And until the OP says the 2500' is flat or downhill after the 120' rise in elevation, there will be pressure loss all along the length for every foot of pipe. IIRC all the charts I've looked at say 1.72 psi per 100'. That is 1.72 * 12 (100' sections you use in his 2500') and that comes up to more than your 8-9 psi in 1200', actually 20.64 psi. Plus the 52 psi for the 120' rise. And 25 * 1.72 = 43 psi; not counting anything for the couplers.

Gary Slusser said:

Wallyworld, thanks for mentioning all those additional codes I couldn't remember, I think we're over 7 now. BTW, I recall someone saying that none agree with the others... and yet National means National.

And, I see you can get away from your code books and into real data on friction loss but, 2500/20' lengths of sch 40 pvc says 125 couplers. Each will cause currents and that causes a pressure loss, especially when there are 125 of them.

ballvalve.... where do you come up with the 1200' you repeatedly mention? The OP said:
pumping uphill

I have a spring that sits 2500 ft away with a vertial drop of 120 ft.

And until the OP says the 2500' is flat or downhill after the 120' rise in elevation, there will be pressure loss all along the length for every foot of pipe. IIRC all the charts I've looked at say 1.72 psi per 100'. That is 1.72 * 12 (100' sections you use in his 2500') and that comes up to more than your 8-9 psi in 1200', actually 20.64 psi. Plus the 52 psi for the 120' rise. And 25 * 1.72 = 43 psi; not counting anything for the couplers.

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So you either can not, will not or do not understand what you are reading, but hey, who cares? You want to believe in 7 National codes than by all means have at it. Though it would be nice if you could show anyone of us where the United States Federal Government has adopted any one of them.

While you are at it, I am still waiting for that friction loss through a PVC clue coupling. Having problems finding it? That would be because the manufactureres do not include it on their charts. Wanna know why? It's because there is no friction loss through a PVC glue coupling. But, I explained all that in a post above and as usual, you either didn't read or comprehend it.

You are always accusing me of "agitating" and yet here you are belaboring an argument that you lost about 8 posts ago. Let it go, your blood pressure will thank you. LOL

BTW they just published the new " Super Duper Mega National Plumbing Code" And naturally, because it has the word "national" in the title it must be LOL

The frictional losses are at 5 gpm or whatever flow value that is chosen. Since he didn't say that he required 'x' GPM at tank (and said that it could be a slow fill), we can assume the flow to be a trickle. As flow goes to zero, the frictional losses also go to zero. If you wanted to be exact, there are also form losses at any changes of area (inlet of pump, outlet to tank, area changes due to screw in fittings, etc.) that would need to be accounted for (but these are usually a drop in the bucket compared to everything else). What it boils down to is he needs a pump that will do 120' of head. That is all it will take to get it up the hill at a trickle. I also assume that this holding tank is at atmospheric pressure, so he is not pumping against house plumbing pressure. So, the pump needs to see at least ~52psi at the pump outlet and this will reduce to approximately 0 psi at the holding tank due to gravity head (rho*g*h).

If he wanted a fixed flow (like 5 gpm) and/or wanted pressurized water at the tank, then we would need to add those on. You are all getting caught up in the friction, but friction is a tiny piece of the pie in this case (assuming low flow).

So, all we can say for sure at this point is that he needs a pump that'll do 120' of head or more. If he add specfic requirements (flowrate needed, a pressurized system, etc.), then we can spec the pump/pipe size. As you'll see from the charts, going from 1" to 1.25" PVC will drop the frictional losses by a bunch at 5 gpm. However, if he only needs 1 GPM, then the 1" (or smaller) could be fine and would not gain much by going larger.

EDIT: He says that he moves 500 gallons at a time, but doesn't say how often. Even if he did this once per day:

500 gal / (24*60) = 0.347 GPM (average flow)

If he filled less frequently, he'll need even less. The point is, looking at a 5 GPM fill rate is not needed (unless he is currently making 14 trips per day ). We could call it 0.5 GPM or even 1 GPM to be safe and you'll see that the frictional losses in a 1" pipe is small even over 2500'.

There's a few iffy assumptions there and I'm going to add another, IF he wants to pay for the electric to run a pump at say 53 psi for 24 hrs you are right. Otherwise he runs the pump at say 5 gpm for 1.66 hrs..

I don't think he'll like to do either, I think he'll turn up the pressure and cut the run time substantially. Which increases the pressure loss and doesn't tell him anything about what pressure to use. I think it's Wally's fault.

He could use a gasoline powered, self priming pump. A Google search finds several that will pump 120' of head at a pretty reasonable cost. The outlet is 1.25 which if he stays with that size will yield less friction loss and cost about the same for the pipe.

Gary: Work is work. Simple as that. Pumping at low flows for 24 hr will not cost any more in electricity than pumping at higher flow rates for less time. In fact, pumping at at higher rate for less time can equal more money burned as now you have greater frictional losses to overcome. Basically, you are moving x number of pounds of water from one elevation to another. Moving those pounds faster or slower changes the pumping power required, but the total energy used (kwh) is the same (ignoring friction and other effects).

I don't see any iffy assumptions there. They fit with what we have been told so far. In fact, I doubt that he makes this trip once per day. It might be every couple days. This problem is very simple, but not enough specs are given. We need to know the following:

- flow rate requirements
- what we have for power source
- desired maintenance
- etc.

Once we have that, we can size the pump/pipe based on the GPM and other requirements.

A gas pump might be easier, but it is more to maintain. If it doesn't have a remote start, he still has to go down to the spring and fire it up, wait until the tank is filled and shut off. In this case, he would want a higher flowrate (which would need larger pipe) as he doesn't want to spend all day running a loud pump and waiting for the tank to fill.

I would be inclined to go with a small electric pump (quiet, low maintenance, inexpensive, low flow = less money spent on pipe, etc.). Add a level switch in the holding tank and let the pump run whenever the level drops. I would then also have some type of overfill on the holding tank incase the level switch failed and cause the pump to keep running (could feed into a second tank or to an area of the yard). Running electric 2500' is far, but he needs to run the pipe anyway, so the amount of work isn't that much more. Another option with a small electric pump would be to build a small solar pump house at the spring. Panel, some batteries, and an inverter would do it. With what you would save with not buying 2500' of wire, you could probably do something like this. It doesn't appear that the need is that critical, so the pump could run during the day when the sun is hitting the panels and off at night.

Now another option would be using a good deep well pump and put the pump at the holding tank (pull the water up, need 120' suction head + resistance). I don't like putting resistance on the suction side of a pump, but something like this could solve the electrical requirements.

Okay, he has about 16.5 psi head loss from friction and 53 or whatever in head loss from head. I got stuck on the 1200 feet.

I already spec'd a 1/2 hp pump that at the 5 gpm discussed would give him pressure at the top to do anything he wants.

Nukeman, he CANNOT suck water up 120 feet unless he runs a 2 pipe jet pumps, which has no efficiency and probably triples the pipe cost. The deep well pump would be a 12 or 15 or more stage 1/2 HP submersible at the bottom of the hill. If he want 0 psi at the top, then a smaller stage pump is okay too. PUSH, dont pull.

And if he uses a gas pump giving 55 PSI, he will probably not see any water at the top of the hill.

BV, read his first post again. Sounds like he has a tank located near the spring that he is pumping water into and from there he wants to pump it the 2500 feet. So, the pump will not be lifting at all, or at least only a few feet.

Just was trying to avoid running 2500' of cable (if possible). It is not clear what the exact situation is. To me, it is like this:

He currently drives down to the spring with a 500 gal tank on a trailer. He then pumps from the spring (or maybe some holding tank near the spring) into this 500 gallon tank. I assume this is probably a gas powered pump, but things would be easier if he did have electric down there. Once the tank is full, he drives up to the holding tank (at the house, I assume) and drains the 500 gallon tank into this holding tank. He uses this for a couple days (or whatever) and repeats the process.

I agree that only a small pump is needed. Only the details need to be worked out (where the power comes from and the size of piping).

GarryBaker said:

I have a spring that sits 2500 ft away with a vertial drop of 120 ft., I could use an electric or gas power pump. I do not need to move the water at a hight rate as I plan to just slowly fill an underground storage tank. What I woul like to know is a specf. pump I could use or where to call or a web site where I could learn more about my options. I presently just drive down to spring where the water is running into a storage tank i and use a pump to transfer to a 500 gal tank on a trail and drive it up and tranfers it to my under ground tank.

thanks

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From that I see the 16+53 psi loss and 2500 feet of pipe going uphill. Its a pity he's gone away after all this fun

No matter what he does there will be some hefty cost involved. Not sure what 2500' of appropriatly sized wire is running now but I'll bet its a few bucks. The pipe is cheap enough but I'm not too sure of the longevity or running 2500 feet of pipe across the ground. I am imagining that he will have to drain it down in the winter also though I didn't get his location. The entire scheme is feasable if not costly