Pumping uphill

[Gary Slusser]

Over the years I have spoken to many people with solar running a pump. I don't think you have.

Maybe this'er that and maybe something else but I'll bet this water he is hauling is delivered into his house cistern where he then pumps it into his house plumbing. And maybe he lives there full time. I'll bet he already thought of the need for electric down at the spring tank.

I'll also bet the solar powered pump will take more than a day of pumping to pump close to 500 gals at 1+ gpm.

In terms of elevation, the following happens with basically any pump:

You say, "See, the suction head goes down with increased altitude, but the discharge head also goes down the same amount. The pump does not know it is working at a different altitude.".

That sounds as if you're getting less gpm. So In my thinking that decreased flow will be less than the figure on the chart unless the chart figures where done at the same altitude. Maybe you should talk to Shurflo and see what altitude they did their testing at.

 

[Nukeman]

1. Gary, the fact is we don't know one way or the other. Simple as that. We don't know the best option at this point, because we don't know all of the requirements. Again, the advantages/disadvantages of all options have to be looked at. For instance, running 2500' of 2ga or heavier wire is very expensive, especially if he is paying someone to do it. Even if a solar pump didn't last as long as another pump, you could replace/repair many pumps for the cost it would be to run 2500' of 2 ga. All aspects must be looked at.

2. The pump does ~1.65 gpm. That means that it would take about 5 hr to refill the 500 gallons. Again, we don't know that he uses 500 gallons a day. It might last him a few days or even a week. We just don't know. Do we really care how long it runs? Besides, it won't be running continuously for that 5hr even, it will come on when needed to refill the tank. You were the one worried about his electric bill. In this case, the electric bill would not exist.

3. Why do you say that what I said "sounds like you are getting less gpm". I did not say that at all. In fact, I am saying that the flow will NOT change. With both ends open to atmospheric pressure, the pump doesn't know if it is working at the top of Everest or at the lowest point in Death Valley. The pump will continue to perform the same. Pumps (and flow) only care about differential pressure. Since atmosperic pressure is the same on the input and the output of the system, the atmospheric pressure term cancels out.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gary Slusser]

It doesn't matter how long 500 gallons lasts him, we are talking about refilling the cistern whenever and as frequently as it's needed.

IMO it will matter to him how long the pump runs, or can run to refill the cistern.

If for no other reason than he may be rationing water until the pump refills the cistern. Or he's back to hauling water. Especially if he has cloudy or other weather to prevent full power to the pump which means he gets a reduced flow/volume of water or none over a few days.

I also I think your suggestion will reguire a deep cycle battery or two. Or he'll need a number of large solar panels to run the pump off only them. They are pricey at like $500 for 100-135 watt panels today. And then he needs a charger or he under or over charges the battery and ruins it. Which under powered probably means the pump doesn't run at optimum so it has to run longer. And the whole thing snowballs downhill.

And when running a small 12v dc pump (for many hours at a time), you best have a spare on hand. Which increases his cost again. Solar powered is a bad choice.

 

[Nukeman]

It doesn't matter how long 500 gallons lasts him, we are talking about refilling the cistern whenever and as frequently as it's needed.

It does factor in as it would relate to the average duty cycle (use %) of the pump (5hr per day, 5hr per 3 days, etc.) In addition, it will influence the pump capacity. If I can take a week to refill it vs. 1hr to refill it, it is a big difference.

IMO it will matter to him how long the pump runs, or can run to refill the cistern.

Why? The pump is 1/2 mile away. Not going to hear it, not going to see it, not going to pay electric on it. As long as it runs and can makeup water as quickly as he is doing now, then he should not care.

If for no other reason than he may be rationing water until the pump refills the cistern. Or he's back to hauling water. Especially if he has cloudy or other weather to prevent full power to the pump which means he gets a reduced flow/volume of water or none over a few days.

Again, the system can be sized to meet these conditions. Possible other sources of power may be available to charge the batteries/run the pump under these conditions too.

I also I think your suggestion will reguire a deep cycle battery or two. Or he'll need a number of large solar panels to run the pump off only them. They are pricey at like $500 for 100-135 watt panels today. And then he needs a charger or he under or over charges the battery and ruins it. Which under powered probably means the pump doesn't run at optimum so it has to run longer. And the whole thing snowballs downhill.

It calls for 2 80W panels, but let's take your numbers:

- $1000 for two panels
- charger (no big deal, expected for this situation)
- couple deep cycle batteries (peanuts compared to everything else)

Have you thought about the cost of cable. For 2 ga THHN, it looks to run about $800 for 500' and that is only one conductor. You would need 220v, so two hots, 1 neutral, and a ground. The ground can be smaller, so figure $2400/500' + ground + conduit for materials.

So, you are looking at $12k + ground + conduit

Now you run to do the labor to run 2500'. If the pipe was going to be burried, you could probably just share the trench, however, with the cost/labor to bury it, he might be inclinded to run the pipe above ground assuming he can provide freeze protection, etc.

At any rate, even sharing the trench with the piping and running the cable himself, he is probably looking at like $15k in materials just to get the power down there. You can buy a lot of panels and pump rebuilds for that.

And when running a small 12v dc pump (for many hours at a time), you best have a spare on hand. Which increases his cost again. Solar powered is a bad choice.

If you have to replace/rebuild the pump here and there, it is not a big deal. You have to look at the big picture and see what option is the best overall. Again, there is not really enough info to go on as far as the best choice.

If you feel so strongly that you have a better solution, why don't you spec/price everything out so we can see your ideas?

 

[NHmaster3015]

another power option could be a LP gas powered or diesel generator with a starting relay for when the pump calls it. Would be way way less than running cable

 

[Ballvalve]

Nukemaster, I would run only 2 hot wires down the mountain and rap a ground rod in at the bottom. We are not on the nuclear watchlist and the idea of a neutral and a ground wire is absurd from a practical, ecological and cost standpoint.

Since this is all only an acedemic exercise, its irrelevant anyway.

Again, 60 watts of solar from amazoniana for 289$ delivered with inverter and charge controller.

Whats with the 2ga? is that copper? 6 or 4 copper will run a franklin 1/3 or 1/2 hp motor.

If he can get another 50 feet of drop, he could build a hydraulic ram and pump it all for free anyway.

You probably wont win arguing with Gary, but we need something to entertain us in this lately boring forum. Keep up the irritation.

 

[Nukeman]

I agree that only 2 hots are really needed, but maybe that wouldn't fly if this was to be inspected.

The 2ga is to support the 1.5 HP pump that Gary mentioned. He mentioned a 1.5 HP or even a 5 HP pump and I mentioned the high cost of suppporting such a pump from 2500' away. I agree that if a typical well pump was used for the job and you wanted to run electric that 4 ga or possibly 6 ga would do the job. My point is that trying to pump faster than needed comes at a cost (sometimes a very big cost).

 

[NHmaster3015]

As long as this gentleman's ramblings are observed then everything should work out just fine

 

[Gary Slusser]

Why? The pump is 1/2 mile away. Not going to hear it, not going to see it, not going to pay electric on it. As long as it runs and can makeup water as quickly as he is doing now, then he should not care.

As quickly as he can make up water, if you are comparing to how long it takes him now, with your toy solar pump. How long do you think it takes him to pump the 500 gals into his portable tank now? .... "he should not care".... You sound like an OBAMA! democrat.

Again, you sound like you think he hasn't thought of electric 2500' away before he asked about what pump to use. Now up until recently many Americans were getting dumber'n dumber by the day (especially urban pukes) and I worry about many still but, I do not believe he hasn't thought of electric being 2500' away from his water source. In Utah or other rural (as some call them Redneck areas), especially those 2500'' away from water, people are thinkers, feeling their way through life has proven not to work well. He has thought of power requirements but, you do realize he has power down there to be able to fill his portable tank right?

Have you thought about the cost of cable. For 2 ga THHN, it looks to run about $800 for 500' and that is only one conductor. You would need 220v, so two hots, 1 neutral, and a ground. The ground can be smaller, so figure $2400/500' + ground + conduit for materials.

I see you don't know much about residential submersible pumps or their installation requirements, or the size of the cable needed for a 1/2 hp pump with a 2500' run. There is no neutral and you certainly don't need 2 ga; and you don't run a smaller gauge ground or use conduit for 2500'!

Now you run to do the labor to run 2500'. If the pipe was going to be burried, you could probably just share the trench, however, with the cost/labor to bury it, he might be inclinded to run the pipe above ground assuming he can provide freeze protection, etc.

He could rent a Ditch Witch for a day or three for a few hundred dollars and do it himself. Rural folks tend to do that type thing, and enjoy it. With my advice to use PE pipe in 1000' rolls, he walks along the trench as he unrolls it into the trench with only 2 joints in the 2500' other than the ones on each ends. You can't choose anything else that require less labor.

At any rate, even sharing the trench with the piping and running the cable himself, he is probably looking at like $15k in materials just to get the power down there. You can buy a lot of panels and pump rebuilds for that.

Except for the fact that you got too many of the wrong gauge wires and too few watts in those small panels, and any old charger etc. etc. while I suspect you have planned on regular batteries instead of deep cycle types and haven't priced any lately.

If you have to replace/rebuild the pump here and there, it is not a big deal.

Really, not a big deal to be living remotely and go down to the spring tank and find the damned toy solar powered pump quit and that's the only reason you're down there is to find out why you don't have water at the house this morning, or it quit during your shower at 10 pm. And who are you to say what is not important to him? Obviously he doesn't want to haul water anymore or he wouldn't have posted here asking about what pump to automate the situation.

You have to look at the big picture and see what option is the best overall. Again, there is not really enough info to go on as far as the best choice.

If you feel so strongly that you have a better solution, why don't you spec/price everything out so we can see your ideas?

The best solution is a normal pump and cable etc.. And for all you know he has power at the spring or he's been using a generator down there to fill his portable tank.

As to prices, the price would be whatever the price would be in Utah and there is no sense in me pricing this out for you but master plumber Wally has plenty of time to do it.

 

[NHmaster3015]

As quickly as he can make up water, if you are comparing to how long it takes him now, with your toy solar pump. How long do you think it takes him to pump the 500 gals into his portable tank now? .... "he should not care".... You sound like an OBAMA! democrat.

Again, you sound like you think he hasn't thought of electric 2500' away before he asked about what pump to use. Now up until recently many Americans were getting dumber'n dumber by the day (especially urban pukes) and I worry about many still but, I do not believe he hasn't thought of electric being 2500' away from his water source. In Utah or other rural (as some call them Redneck areas), especially those 2500'' away from water, people are thinkers, feeling their way through life has proven not to work well. He has thought of power requirements but, you do realize he has power down there to be able to fill his portable tank right?


I see you don't know much about residential submersible pumps or their installation requirements, or the size of the cable needed for a 1/2 hp pump with a 2500' run. There is no neutral and you certainly don't need 2 ga; and you don't run a smaller gauge ground or use conduit for 2500'!


He could rent a Ditch Witch for a day or three for a few hundred dollars and do it himself. Rural folks tend to do that type thing, and enjoy it. With my advice to use PE pipe in 1000' rolls, he walks along the trench as he unrolls it into the trench with only 2 joints in the 2500' other than the ones on each ends. You can't choose anything else that require less labor.


Except for the fact that you got too many of the wrong gauge wires and too few watts in those small panels, and any old charger etc. etc. while I suspect you have planned on regular batteries instead of deep cycle types and haven't priced any lately.


Really, not a big deal to be living remotely and go down to the spring tank and find the damned toy solar powered pump quit and that's the only reason you're down there is to find out why you don't have water at the house this morning, or it quit during your shower at 10 pm. And who are you to say what is not important to him? Obviously he doesn't want to haul water anymore or he wouldn't have posted here asking about what pump to automate the situation.


The best solution is a normal pump and cable etc.. And for all you know he has power at the spring or he's been using a generator down there to fill his portable tank.

As to prices, the price would be whatever the price would be in Utah and there is no sense in me pricing this out for you but master plumber Wally has plenty of time to do it.

Hate to bring up that pesky old "Code" thing again but you have to run 4 wire to a 220 pump now.

"walk along unrolling the pipe into the trench"? Have you handled a 1000' roll of 1 1/4 PE lately?

At best the smallest gauge wire he could use would be 3 for 2500' for a 1/2 hp motor

 

[Nukeman]

As quickly as he can make up water, if you are comparing to how long it takes him now, with your toy solar pump. How long do you think it takes him to pump the 500 gals into his portable tank now? .... "he should not care".... You sound like an OBAMA! democrat.

Again, you sound like you think he hasn't thought of electric 2500' away before he asked about what pump to use. Now up until recently many Americans were getting dumber'n dumber by the day (especially urban pukes) and I worry about many still but, I do not believe he hasn't thought of electric being 2500' away from his water source. In Utah or other rural (as some call them Redneck areas), especially those 2500'' away from water, people are thinkers, feeling their way through life has proven not to work well. He has thought of power requirements but, you do realize he has power down there to be able to fill his portable tank right?


I see you don't know much about residential submersible pumps or their installation requirements, or the size of the cable needed for a 1/2 hp pump with a 2500' run. There is no neutral and you certainly don't need 2 ga; and you don't run a smaller gauge ground or use conduit for 2500'!


He could rent a Ditch Witch for a day or three for a few hundred dollars and do it himself. Rural folks tend to do that type thing, and enjoy it. With my advice to use PE pipe in 1000' rolls, he walks along the trench as he unrolls it into the trench with only 2 joints in the 2500' other than the ones on each ends. You can't choose anything else that require less labor.


Except for the fact that you got too many of the wrong gauge wires and too few watts in those small panels, and any old charger etc. etc. while I suspect you have planned on regular batteries instead of deep cycle types and haven't priced any lately.


Really, not a big deal to be living remotely and go down to the spring tank and find the damned toy solar powered pump quit and that's the only reason you're down there is to find out why you don't have water at the house this morning, or it quit during your shower at 10 pm. And who are you to say what is not important to him? Obviously he doesn't want to haul water anymore or he wouldn't have posted here asking about what pump to automate the situation.


The best solution is a normal pump and cable etc.. And for all you know he has power at the spring or he's been using a generator down there to fill his portable tank.

As to prices, the price would be whatever the price would be in Utah and there is no sense in me pricing this out for you but master plumber Wally has plenty of time to do it.

1. Listen. As long as the pump can fill up the tank at the house at the same rate that he is supplying water manually, then it is no big deal. He meets his water usage demands and saves the trouble of going down and filling up his tank on the trailer (how ever often that is). There is a reserve at the tank at the house. It is not like it is a tiny well pressure tank or anything like that. It is not like he takes a shower and then has to wait several house for the tank to refill. We don't know his family size or usage patterns, but I bet that 500 gallons will last 1-3 days.

2. How do you know that he doesn't have a gas pump attached to the trailer? He might have a gas pump at the spring. That would be much easier and cheaper for him at this point than running electric or using a generator to run an electric pump. For his current method, a gas pump makes the most sense (doesn't need much head, needs good GPM, needs to be portable).

3. 2 ga is to support the 1.5 HP pump that you listed (1st reply and again on the page before this one). I already mentioned the reason for using the 2 ga in the cost. For a 0.5 HP, then 4 ga would likely be needed. Ground wire is normally required and tied back to the panel. The wire that I was doing a cost on was THHN and so a conduit would be used. You could use UF cable without the conduit, but you'll have to bury deeper as well. Having conduit (especially if oversized) would also allow him to pull larger wires if he needed a larger pump in the future.

4. Ditch Witch may work just fine. As I said, the materials would be high (to support a larger pump that you mentioned). The labor may not be (if you could share the trench with the piping, for instance). You don't know the soil condition (might be all rock). You also don't know what his time is worth to him nor do you know if he could physically handle the project. He may have to pay for labor..you just don't know.

5. I am going on the specs for the pump. The actual panels selected would be determined based on his location. I don't know why you are talking about the wrong ga. wire. I never mentioned the size for a solar setup, but you wouldn't need anything special. Charger is no big deal. Buy one or build one. Nothing special there. I had planned for deep cycle batteries, if solar was to be used. Again, these are cheap compared to the cost of the other materials involved.

6. It would be simple to know ahead of time if the pump quit working. You will have a level switch (not pressure) to control it. It would be extremely easy to add a low level alarm on the tank to let you know that the pump wasn't working. Again, any pump can quit at any time. Something like this would be a good idea regardless which pump was selected.

7. How do you know it is "best" to run a normal pump and cable when you haven't run the numbers? How do you define "best"? Will your "best" be best for his wallet?

Again, I am NOT saying that solar IS the way to go..only that it IS an option that should be considered.

 

[Ballvalve]

Another option is for Gary to park his motorhome by the spring and lend a hand with his generator and dc pump.... Hopefully there is no internet reception there.

 

[NHmaster3015]

Ain't it amazing how long this thread has gone on without any input from the OP?

 

[Valveman]

You only need 3 conductors, and #6 wire will run a ½ HP motor up to 2510’ away. You only need 4 conductors for the short distance between the control box and the motor on 3 wire pumps.

I would use solar only if there are no other options. They are kind of like photovoltaic panels and wind generators. They usually don’t last long enough to cover their own expense, so they are not really saving anything.

And Gary should know about living off the grid. There are a lot more options available, and life can be easier, when you can tie into a good electrical supply.

 

[NHmaster3015]

1/2 hp pump 2500' minimum #4

 

[Valveman]

1/2 HP, 2510' with #6

 

[NHmaster3015]

Yep, apologies, looking at the wrong row. Even so though can you imagine what 7500' of # 6 copper would cost?

 

[Valveman]

2500' of 6-3 underground cable at about 2.50 per foot equals $6,250.00. But you wouldn't just have water when the sun is shining, and you wouldn't have to keep up with oil and gas for a generator.

 

[Nukeman]

I'll have to go back to find my reference, but I believe the chart that I had listed 2487' or something for 6 ga at 1/2 HP. Regardless, even at 2510', you are right at the limit and whether you would be able to stay under a 5% voltage drop with 6 ga will depend how accurate his measurement is as well as the actual path the cable takes. If we weren't sure at this point, it would be better to spec it with 4 ga and then install 6 ga (if possible) once better measurements are known.

All options would need to have the total cost figured over the expected life that he will be using it. In addition, you should figure out when this money would be spent. For instance:

System A: Say 12k install cost, 3k operating cost over 10 years
System B: Say 8k install cost, 7k operating cost over 10 years

Both systems costs the same over the 10 year period, but system B would be considered cheaper as the upfront money saved could be invested in other things. Not to mention that inflation will counteract some of the future operating costs.

Once you figure the total cost of all options, then you would factor in other aspects (time to maintain, ease of operation, parts availability, etc.). Only the OP will know how important these other things are compared to cost (Is he willing to pay 30% more for a system if it will save him a few hours each year working on it?).

 

[Valveman]

It is nearly always a good idea to oversize pipe. I have learned that it is not always a good idea to oversize wire. Here is a quote from the Franklin Electric AIM manual and a link to the page.

"Reduced-voltage starters may not be required if the maximum recommended cable length is used. With maximum recommended cable length there is a 5% voltage drop in the cable at running amps, resulting in about 20% reduction in starting current and about 36% reduction in starting torque compared to having rated voltage at the motor. This may be enough reduction in starting current so that reduced-voltage starters are not required."

http://www.franklin-electric.com/business/WaterSystems/service/AIM/page-36.aspx