(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 45 of 45

Thread: A.O. Smith water heater

  1. #31
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of the brave....
    Posts
    4,243
    Blog Entries
    1

    Talking you cant fix stupid....

    redwood, you cant fix stupid....

    also you cant explain anything to stupid.


    STUPID IS, AS STUPID DOES......












    here are the older designs from 04...


    and here is the bottom on a brand new 09 unit..

    it looks like they have actually gone backwards in their design???..

    dont you think??
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  2. #32
    DIY Member Hillbilly Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wee-Todd-Id Valley, North Carolina
    Posts
    70

    Default

    Damn You guys are fun to watch goin after them enginears.
    Them injuns sure knew hoe ta hunt them buffalos.
    Jes stampede the critters offa cliff an pick up the meat an furs on the bottom.

    Talk about dum animals!
    Kinda reminds me of enginears.
    Hillbilly Eng-in-ear
    Moonshine Maker
    Dumb as a Stump

  3. #33
    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    892

    Default

    Redwood and his buddies are really groping with the personal attacks. This engineer generally is stuck fixing what the plumber screwed up. Fixing other engineers' screw ups is nothing new to me either. I did have to call a plumber once for a mistake I made.

    Y'all are falling prey to the typical problem of tradesmen, failing to recognize the areas where you lack the education to fully understand what you are talking about. And it's apparent you've got chips on your shoulders about it. You get maybe 90% of it right, but the parts you are missing are critical ones. (It's unfortunate that Redwood doesn't follow his own sig.) I default to you folks on general plumbing fabrication and many of the things you have observed, but some of your explanations of "why" are sorely lacking from a technical standpoint. And your advice with respect to economics is really atrocious.

    As to the flame arrestor, I've had no problem seeing the flaws in it, so you can stuff that strawman where the sun doesn't shine. An obvious flaw in a design doesn't explain everything else. Amateur troubleshooters get suckered by the most obvious things and can't seem to see past them. Even with the arrestor's flaws, the arguments you folks make about it being behind the problems are USUALLY WRONG. That much is obvious when folks describe a clean screen (most of the Whirlpools TC/gas valve situations.)

    I've had excellent results as a troubleshooter and a key to that it not locking in on the first thing I see; instead trying to take it all in and adjust based on observations of others. A problem is often something more subtle or a combination of things. Being a good troubleshooter doesn't require a degree or trades training, but it does require an open mind. When asking maintenance men, mechanics, operators, technicians and shift supervisors for their take on a problem or piece of equipment I focus mostly on the details of what they've observed, not their theories about why it happens. When the answer is found it generally provides a good explanation for all of their observations but it rarely matches the explanations they gave.

    As for hourly rates...I've noted that in any given profession the quality of the work is often inversely proportional to the rate they are charging. Those focused on making a quick buck rarely provide the best service. Those trying to hide their cost basis generally are trying to rip you off. Some of the best plumbing work I've had done was by far the least expensive (so much so that I wonder how they made anything off of their typical call.) I had a dentist who was the least expensive in town (less than half as much as his closest competition), and did better work. He was upfront about his rates. He was an ex-engineer (I had read some of his technical reports for a plant I did staff work on and they were first rate) who left the field to become a dentist. Seemed pretty odd that he did so and I wondered how he made money with his low rates...yet he retired early, leaving me without a dentist.

    As to Redwood's comments about State etc.: there is a good chance he is wide of the mark. I suspect there might be some sort of intellectual property or other contractual restriction on where they put their FVIR. Perhaps they've locked into a bad location for the screen, but when I've come across quirks like this before there has often been some sort of non-engineering reason for it. Since there appear to be only two teams working on these type of water heater designs for the US market (BW/GE/Rheem and State/AO Smith/Whirlpool) features are probably limited to a line by who adopts them an registers the intellectual propery first.

    When you clowns get tired of the personal attacks and explanations of how you are smarter than any engineer, and instead want to discuss quantifiable things, let me know.

  4. #34
    DIY Member dargo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by master plumber mark View Post
    redwood, you cant fix stupid....

    also you cant explain anything to stupid.
    STUPID IS, AS STUPID DOES......
    here are the older designs from 04...


    and here is the bottom on a brand new 09 unit..

    it looks like they have actually gone backwards in their design???..

    dont you think??

    How many times are you going to post the same lines and pixs???????? Again, as I stated why is it the water tanks fault since it seems the drier (in your issue) was installed incorrectly or the water tank was installed in the incorrect location (aka read the manual).
    I have NEVER had my filter EVER get that dirty as Redwood posted on. Let along the filter shown is not even mine (on my PV smith tank). And the pix with the tank looks like the area is not the cleanest.

    The CFM this tank needs to so small I have yet to see how this happens. Maybe people homes are dirty, poor installs etc? Or many DID NOT READ THE MANUAL!!!!!!

    Agian people think these units, furances are use and forget. People are lazy if this happens in my eyes.

    Lastly, certain posters resort to nailing engineers. Maybe just maybe it again is not their fault. Maybe it is requirements driving it, management, mfg etc. I am not saying AO smith has the best intake but I fail to see why it is the units faults or the engineers.
    So far, since I am new to this place, Runs with bison is nailing it head on!
    Last edited by dargo; 01-16-2010 at 11:49 AM.

  5. #35
    Homeowner Thatguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    1,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dargo View Post
    Do not point the blame on the Eng here, could have been directed from the bean counters too!
    Or they could have been engineers biding their time until they become managers.
    It's the engineering equivalent of political appointees - if they screw up, others get blamed; if others do well, the appointee gets the credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
    Bison Hunting anyone?



    That middle one looks like my ex-wife.


    BTW, one thing that I've noticed about engineers and others is their interpretation of observed events, and that seems to hold up for this thread.
    Last edited by Thatguy; 01-16-2010 at 11:56 AM.

  6. #36
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of the brave....
    Posts
    4,243
    Blog Entries
    1

    Talking Please Enlighten me...

    [QUOTE=Runs with bison;

    As to the flame arrestor, I've had no problem seeing the flaws in it, so you can stuff that strawman where the sun doesn't shine. An obvious flaw in a design doesn't explain everything else. Amateur troubleshooters get suckered by the most obvious things and can't seem to see past them. Even with the arrestor's flaws, the arguments you folks make about it being behind the problems are USUALLY WRONG. That much is obvious when folks describe a clean screen (most of the Whirlpools TC/gas valve situations.)

    .

    When you clowns get tired of the personal attacks and explanations of how you are smarter than any engineer, and instead want to discuss quantifiable things, let me know.[/QUOTE]


    Bravo, bravo... so well stated

    so well articulated.... yet so full of crap...


    you state that you see the obvious flaws with the product

    but this does not really answer the question as to what is really wrong with the water heater..... LOL thats a good one..

    an obvious flaw in a design does not explain everything else....LOL..LOL..




    Bison, I think you have answered everything
    with your own double-talk.......

    even with the problem sitting right in front of you nose,
    like any average enjineer, you simply cannot admit it.......








    could you please pull your head out of your ass....

  7. #37
    DIY Senior Member Runs with bison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    892

    Default

    Mark, when you figure out how to properly format your posts and fix the syntax that screws them up, then your criticism might carry a bit more weight.

    As to the factual side of things, you came up short again. You still haven't explained how this FVIR event would allow repeated relighting and TC changes. That was the part I asked you about earlier...waiting for your experience on many systems to explain how the FVIR systems were actuating. On the other hand, curlysir provided some documentation of the ECO problem that was caused by faulty Unitrol gas valve set ups. Turns out my serial number was in that range. So you missed that one big time, and there is documentation to prove it.

    Now if you want to do something intelligent and helpful, rather than behaving as a crap slinging monkey, try explaining the rather huge body of discrepancies between observed problems and your "Water Heater Theory of Everything." You see, some of us who have been around the block a few times on design and troubleshooting recognize that multiple aspects are often behind the most difficult to solve problems.

    It would be helpful to quantify some of the differences in the two systems. For instance you could provide measurements on several of them. Engineers love numbers. Opinions don't carry much weight with us, but numbers we can do something with. As I've said, I'm not impressed with the Smith/State/Whirpool FVIR system. I can see where it will cause air induction problems for some. But to analyze the impact one needs some basics like:
    1. Burner rating.
    2. Chimney diameter.
    3. Dimensions of the FVIR screen (e.g. length and width, plus slot count and slot dimensions so that total open area can be compared.) I roughed these out on the Whirlpool some time ago and it was marginal to my eye.
    4. Any other bottlenecks...one could provide a huge screen but have the air pass through a narrow annulus--this is a common issue when one does pump suction/swirlbreaker design/redesign of units from years ago, as well as with distillation tower trays and distributors. The designer of one system often was not the designer of the other or the entire flowpath wasn't considered. Frankly, old equipment designs were lousy with "rule of thumb" engineering that fouled up details like this.

  8. #38
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of the brave....
    Posts
    4,243
    Blog Entries
    1

    Talking People are dirty and lazy,,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by dargo View Post

    The CFM this tank needs to so small I have yet to see how this happens. Maybe people homes are dirty, poor installs etc? Or many DID NOT READ THE MANUAL!!!!!!

    Agian people think these units, furances are use and forget. People are lazy if this happens in my eyes.

    Lastly, certain posters resort to nailing engineers. Maybe just maybe it again is not their fault. Maybe it is requirements driving it, management, mfg etc. I am not saying AO smith has the best intake but I fail to see why it is the units faults or the engineers.
    So far, since I am new to this place, Runs with bison is nailing it head on!

    Look dargo.....

    when you design a product, you are supposed to design
    it in a way to withstand anything thrown at it...


    For example...
    if you have a cell phone, if it could not with stand being dropped out of your pocket without it breaking, it probably would not be on the market very long...

    you could not blame the lazy owner for having an accident
    the phone should have been tested for extreme rugged situations.....

    .Therefore... someone did not do their homework....OK??

    Who is that someone anyway????

    Who is the dumbass that designed this crappy unit???
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    variables like REAL WORLD dirt and lint and filth and lazy stupid people should have been factored into the design of this water heater.....


    Now, if you have a defective water heater and you try to blame dirty , lazy people who let the dryer vent fall off their dryers, or who do not clean up well....


    you have not done your home work and tested the heater in the worst possible situatioins,

    trying to claim that they should have read the owners
    manual is simply retarted and stupid

    So...lets educate the whole population of the united states
    on how to clean the lint filters on their water heaters every
    3 months......


    ..

    this is a chicken shit way to weasel out of admitting
    you made a stupid mistake with the design of your product....



    I dont know why I am argueing with you...,

    their stupidity is actually keeping me in business.

    have a defective whirlpool to change out on monday
    and others on the way....


    Bison, if I have accidently mis-spelled a few words.
    or not put them into proper paragraphs........

    .........blow me................................................ .............
    .................................................. ...........................................

  9. #39
    DIY Member dargo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by master plumber mark View Post
    Look dargo.....
    when you design a product, you are supposed to design
    it in a way to withstand anything thrown at it...
    For example...
    if you have a cell phone, if it could not with stand being dropped out of your pocket without it breaking, it probably would not be on the market very long...
    you could not blame the lazy owner for having an accident
    the phone should have been tested for extreme rugged situations.....
    .Therefore... someone did not do their homework....OK??
    Who is that someone anyway????
    Who is the dumbass that designed this crappy unit???
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    variables like REAL WORLD dirt and lint and filth and lazy stupid people should have been factored into the design of this water heater.....

    Now, if you have a defective water heater and you try to blame dirty , lazy people who let the dryer vent fall off their dryers, or who do not clean up well....
    you have not done your home work and tested the heater in the worst possible situatioins,
    trying to claim that they should have read the owners
    manual is simply retarted and stupid
    So...lets educate the whole population of the united states
    on how to clean the lint filters on their water heaters every
    3 months......
    ..
    this is a chicken shit way to weasel out of admitting
    you made a stupid mistake with the design of your product....
    I dont know why I am argueing with you...,
    their stupidity is actually keeping me in business.
    have a defective whirlpool to change out on monday
    and others on the way....
    Bison, if I have accidently mis-spelled a few words.
    or not put them into proper paragraphs........

    .........blow me................................................ .............
    .................................................. ...........................................

    WEll lets sum this up.. You have come down to the level as using, "chicken shit way ", "stupid" , retard...etc..Boy, you operate a great biz...Based on your posting and the wonderful text size, grammer, etc, great multi-million dollar biz... LMAO

    Bud, a hot water tank and a phone are not even the same. Then again, if you READ THE MANUAL on the AO smith they say to clean the screen. Can you and your "customers" read???????Colleges do have <100 level classes you know? Also if this is an issue do a proper install or clean your damn home! Slobs

    Ps. I have never cleaned the internal screen for the burner on an AO smith EVER!!!!!! In one year you are lucky if there is little debris on the screen (removable on the bottom). Then again I take pride in my home..

    Again it comes down to lazy people (you and others) that think they can run units many times a day and do nothing and expect zero issues. So you can use a car for years and do nothing????

    Then again service people love this since many feed off it (aka you). Then again how do you design for dumb Mr Non-engineer????? People like yourself is why lawn mower need sticker so you do not stick hands under it when running. Then again you are not an enginner.

    I think you have an issue with this manufacture and need to come to terms you messed up, did not READ the book (aka clean the screen here; in english in the book) or you have one dirty home. Other then that, you posts are lacking to show real upscale ethics.
    Last edited by dargo; 01-16-2010 at 06:01 PM. Reason: clean up master plumber marks great post

  10. #40
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    7,463

    Default

    So...

    Exactly how do you clean that screen on the bottom of the water heater sitting in that code required pan anyway?

    Remember now I am a home owner and not a plumber...
    So it is highly unlikely that I'll shut off the water heater, drain the water heater, disconnect the flue water and gas lines to tip it on its side or lift it straight up for access...
    That pan seems a little tight and I don't have a Ridgid Micro See-Snake to look in there with but then again any plumber that charged $20 or, 30 an hour like an engineer's hourly wages probably wouldn't own one with the expenses of running his business.

    Enlighten me please!
    Or I'll wisely choose to buy the superior design that probably will never need cleaning...

    We'll just have to let the Darwin was right run its course...
    Last edited by Redwood; 01-16-2010 at 06:27 PM.

  11. #41
    DIY Member dargo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
    So...

    Exactly how do you clean that screen on the bottom of the water heater sitting in that code required pan anyway?

    Remember now I am a home owner and not a plumber...

    Enlighten me please!
    Or I'll wisely choose to buy the superior design that probably will never need cleaning...

    We'll just have to let the Darwin was right run its course...
    Um, in my area there is no code for a pans (per the city codes).BONG.

    Then again in MA, I have NEVER see the internal screen (not a filter per say) need to be cleaned.

    What will a pan do in a CT basement that will do nothing..Pan to where? A sump?

    Next is the manual, if they can read, tells you what to do and even has a website and a phone #....Gee, are you in E. Hartford. If so, just call someone since the prior will not apply..LOL
    Last edited by dargo; 01-16-2010 at 06:16 PM.

  12. #42
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    7,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dargo View Post
    Then again in MA, I have NEVER see the internal screen (not a filter per say) need to be cleaned.
    Oh and in Mass you wouldn't be doing much plumbing at all without a plumbing license so no worries for you...

    Seems a home owner can't even plumb his own home there...

    What do your lawmakers know anyway...
    Talking to you I'd say their judgement is sound...

  13. #43
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati Area
    Posts
    2,943

    Default

    I've installed 2 A.O. Smith water Heaters in the past 24 hours...if that even matters on this thread.


    I'm just sayin'...
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  14. #44
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of the brave....
    Posts
    4,243
    Blog Entries
    1

    Talking you cant fix or argue with stupid....

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
    So...

    Exactly how do you clean that screen on the bottom of the water heater sitting in that code required pan anyway?


    Enlighten me please!
    Or I'll wisely choose to buy the superior design that probably will never need cleaning...

    We'll just have to let the Darwin was right run its course...

    I think that you are wasteing you time here Redwood......


    Looking at that last post that Dargo made , my guess is .

    Dargo probably is half stewed toinght on
    Jack Daniels or something stronger...........

    probably about the same situation with Bison too......

    its got to be what is going on with them because after
    reading that last post by Dargo, ..
    plain common sense has been thrown out the window
    and you might as well be talking with a drunk in a bar....



    becasue we cannot logically , precicely, pinpoint
    and draw out some bluprint schematics to the exact flaw
    in this water heater,, or produce a permit # from city hall
    for the date of the water heater install.
    or produce an instruction manuel....
    .......you are wrong..




    and they are gonna argue with
    you till they are blue in the face...



    I doubt either of these
    "wizards of enjineering" would actually buy
    one of the Smith water heaters for their own home.....

    but that is not the point here is it????.



    please .....wizards.....excuse my poor grammar,,

  15. #45

    Default

    Mark, when you figure out how to properly format your posts and fix the syntax that screws them up, then your criticism might carry a bit more weight.
    Dude Mark,
    Can I call you thadt?
    You need to talk more purty if'n you wnat them guys to unnerstan you.
    Dang, whare you larn to talk like thadt?
    I'm a sure, that ifn you talked better to them water heaters, tehn they woodn't be plugin themselves up with lint and cat hari.
    You just need to talk purty to them, and teh will clean up their act.
    Works for me.
    Joe the Plumber

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-13-2013, 12:31 PM
  2. Problem with AO smith Promax water heater.
    By Jrgaskey in forum Water Heater Forum, Tanks
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-16-2012, 09:29 AM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-19-2011, 03:40 AM
  4. AO Smith GPCR 50-100 water heater not working
    By jmyjob in forum Water Heater Forum, Tanks
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-20-2010, 09:29 AM
  5. A.O. Smith Water heater noise
    By Bob the Builder in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-20-2008, 07:20 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •