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Thread: What about the AS Champion 4?

  1. #1

    Default What about the AS Champion 4?

    Is there any feedback here on the Champion 4?

    Please- for all you who hate the original Champion, I understand that totally, so please don't go there. I just want to find out if they have fixed the problems now.

    We are in a drought, on a well, and must save water. I never thought I would be willing to give up my old dependable toilets that I can't even find a name on, and I'm not going to discard them, but I have got to save water any way I can. In the meantime, I'm not made out of money, can't put $400 each into two really good toilets, but must have toilets that will flush properly or this will be a waste of money and time. I understand that the original Champion flushed well, but that there were numerous other problems.

    Thanks, Daddybob

  2. #2
    DIY Junior Member MSanders's Avatar
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    Just my opinion here...go with an AS Cadet 3. They are cheaper than the Champions and still flush as well as a Champion.

  3. #3
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    There are things about the Champion that I don't like,
    big
    bulky
    sloppy looking

    They have changed the flush valve on the Champion, I believe to something close to the Cadet 3 design.
    The Cadet 3 flappers are having problems.

    You don't need to spend $400
    I sell a lot of the $219.99 Toto Drakes, much better than the Champion.
    The Toto Dalton $185.00, better than.
    Even the Cadet 3 is better than the Champion.

    I just installed the Eco Drake, uses 1.28 gallon per flush.
    It works very well.
    Last edited by Terry; 10-29-2007 at 06:21 PM.

  4. #4

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    Thanks Terry, I will drop the AS's from consideration and find out how to buy a Toto in my area if I can get a decent price. The info on the net pro-Toto is just overwhelming. DB

  5. #5
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daddybob View Post
    Is there any feedback here on the Champion 4?

    Please- for all you who hate the original Champion, I understand that totally, so please don't go there. I just want to find out if they have fixed the problems now.

    We are in a drought, on a well, and must save water. I never thought I would be willing to give up my old dependable toilets that I can't even find a name on, and I'm not going to discard them, but I have got to save water any way I can. In the meantime, I'm not made out of money, can't put $400 each into two really good toilets, but must have toilets that will flush properly or this will be a waste of money and time. I understand that the original Champion flushed well, but that there were numerous other problems.

    Thanks, Daddybob
    I installed a Champion 4 today and only by accident, and I agree with Terry that the Cadet 3 out performs the Champion 4.

    Anyway I installed the Champion 4 and when this toilet flushes, it has like a wicked siphon jet going when it evacuates the bowl.

    To me, and without having anything to throw down it to resemble solids, this toilet will work but I think bowl wash is going to be lack luster.

    It needs more delay between the large canister type top dropping and the flush action.

    Of course, the longer you hold the trip lever down the more water you can flush but you will not evacuate that entire tank since the flush valve opening is at 4". !!!! .

    I paid $209.00 for this toilet and I should of spent less in getting the Cadet 3.

    I just got lazy and didn't want to pull that toilet bowl and carry it down two flights of stairs and repeat...just to use the Cadet 3 tank.
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  6. #6

    Default

    Can you not find a way to cut the water usage on your old toilets without replacing them? I know they used to say put a milk jug in the tank so it would use less water. Also you might change out the fill valve to the fluidmaster and adjust that so it will fill up less but still give a good enough flush. Would be worth a try to keep from spending money on new toilets unless you just want to upgrade. But the way some of the new ones works I wouldn't call it an "upgrade". Just my 2 cents.

  7. #7
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Some of the new ones are an upgrade.
    I just installed the new Eco Drake, using 1.28 gallons.
    Works perfectly.

    There are others that work well too.

  8. #8
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    It really depends on the design...some of the old toilets, even with the 5-6 gallons didn't flush great. The shape of the waterways and their size will make a huge difference in whether it will work with less water. Keep in mind, lowering the level of the water in the tank of an old one may not work very well...even the new ones keep the height higher - it gives the water more of a 'head' or push, but they put in special flapper valves that close sooner to limit the flow. Getting an old toilet to flush with a smaller quantity of water is a crap shoot...it might work, but it may not. Look at the discussions on the new ones that were supposedly designed to work with less water...some work great, better than the old ones, but some are pathetic...some of the old standbyes just didn't put the engineering into the new ones and tried the same thing you are contemplating...it just doesn't work very often. Best to start with a design engineered to maximize the operation.

    The ones I got were unboxed, then foamed in place. They survived the shipping pretty well. This is not something most places can do or want to take the time to do.
    Last edited by jadnashua; 11-07-2007 at 11:32 AM. Reason: added info
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  9. #9

    Default

    Terry, do you ship to Virginia? On your order page, only "Delivery to Seattle area or Los Angeles area." is available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    There are things about the Champion that I don't like,
    big
    bulky
    sloppy looking

    They have changed the flush valve on the Champion, I believe to something close to the Cadet 3 design.
    The Cadet 3 flappers are having problems.

    You don't need to spend $400
    I sell a lot of the $219.99 Toto Drakes, much better than the Champion.
    The Toto Dalton $185.00, better than.
    Even the Cadet 3 is better than the Champion.

    I just installed the Eco Drake, uses 1.28 gallon per flush.
    It works very well.

  10. #10
    DIY Senior Member SamC's Avatar
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    The Totousa web site has a dealer locator by zip code.

  11. #11
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Terry doesn't typically ship out of his area because things often get broken. I've bought 4 Totos over the internet, and one ended up getting replaced...I never got it, the shipper recognized it was broken and returned it before he even tried to deliver it to me. The boxes are designed to be paletized...without extra padding and care, their life is in jepardy with most shippers. It's just not worth the hassle for most people.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  12. #12

    Default Champion flush valve replacement part

    Just replaced the flush valve on my Champion with the "4" flush valve.. actually makes sense and don't anticipate problems with it looking at it..
    They even provide a crappy hollow plasticewrench with the kit (actually did work) and VERY GOOD instructions. However they don't provide a new gasket between the tank and bowl.. so if you buy one (got mine @ Locke Plumbing online they were very fast about $34 with shipping) get a new gasket too mine was still soft but deformed.
    Taking out the old valve I see the new gasket got a blister (= leak)just like the old one. It was 2 years old in Chicago water.. Wasn't going to spend another $4 for that stupid gasket when the old valve used to *slip* half the time and not "pick up the valve to" flush at all.
    The new one looks like all these problems are remidied.. no more fancy crap, they may have gotten it right.. we will see in time..

    Thanks to Terry Love for this forum saved me tons of trouble

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