What should I change for diaphragm pressure tank?

[Reach4]

With the snifter valve under the pressure switch I don't think you are supposed put air in the snifter valve. Air comes in through the snifter valve and the weep hole when the pump runs.

Air should come in as you say. However you are short of air.

If you can add air, and get much longer cycle times, that does two things:

1. it gives you a working system for a while, making repair or upgrade less urgent.
2. It proves out that the problem is that the normal way is not working adequately. Is your hole blocked or too small, or what?

So originally I thought your AVC was letting out too much air. But now I realize that even the top hole would not be able to release air if the air pocket was so small that the pump only ran 5 seconds.

If you wanted to add air from a compressor into the snifter, I would pump the air pressure up to maybe 65. Then let some water out of a faucet so the pressure drops. Then add some more air.

 

[Valveman]

With an Air Volume Control in the tank, you can only add so much air before the AVC lets the air out and back to the level of the AVC float.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Mike77]

Thanks for the link Cary, but that doesn't help me at all.
I watched the video:
How a Pressure Tank Works and why you need a Cycle Stop Valve
https://vimeo.com/cyclestopvalves

I am not sold on a cycle stop valve system for several reasons.
1. I think constantly running a pump as long as any water is turned on would put more wear on my pump than if it cycled.
2 I think running the pump motor for hours could over heat it
3. I think during a hard freeze such a small tank would quickly freeze up. I don't have room to put it in my house.

I plan to research these issues further and see what pump motor manufacturers say about a cycle stop valve system. I might go with a cycle stop valve system in the future but for now Cary, can you please advise how I can get present system to quit short cycling before the pump wears out?

 

[Valveman]

Well I would but I have been drilling wells for 50 years and selling a valve for 26 years that doesn't work as advertised, so I guess I don't know what I am talking about. LOL! There is no question that the CSV is a superior way to control your pump. That science is settled. There are only people who have no clue how pumps work.

#1 Pumps are made for continuous duty. Submersibles have bearings that are completely frictionless when running. The only time the bearings will wear is during startup, before they get up to speed and start getting the lubrication they need. I have a pump in a well for stock water that hasn't turned off in over 17 years now. It will last longer than any pump that cycles on and off even just a few times.

#2 Again NO! The water you are pumping is what cools the pump/motor. It is running for short times that causes problems, as the heat in the motor doesn't have time to dissipate. Long runs are a good thing.

#3 Even small pressure tanks do not freeze easily. The first thing to freeze is the little 1/4" nipple going to the pressure switch, no matter what kind or size a tank you have. The old galv tanks with the bleed back system are the only kind that will not freeze. But that is only if the pressure switch is up on the air side of the tank, and only for as long as the bleed back system is working.

A pump manufacturer is not going to say anything good about the CSV. The CSV is a disruptive product and knocks them out of a lot of business by making pumps last much longer and use smaller pressure tanks. The guy at the gas station is not going to tell you about a $1 fuel additive that would make any car get 100 MPG either. They are in it to sell pumps and gas. You will have to find out about these useful and disruptive products on your own, or be forced to live with the consequences the pump manufacturers want you to have.

Oh and if you want to "get present system to quit short cycling before the pump wears out" you need more air in the tank. Bleed back systems are not really reliable doing that, so you just have to check it often. And that will only lengthen the pump cycles, it won't eliminate them like a CSV does.

 

[Mike77]

OK thanks Cary, I probably will order a cycle stop system from you. I sure don't want to buy another pump.
Would the CSV have any electronic or electric controls besides the pressure switch?
Could I keep my 80 gallon pressure tank without a diaphragm so I could drain water from it during a power outage?

Cary, would I need to close the weep hole down the drop pipe and if so what is the best method to close it.

 

[Reach4]

Don't forget about that above-ground piping in the cold part of Texas, so use a heat source and insulation if the pipes will get very cold.

 

[Mike77]

Reach4, by next winter I wold be building a shed around it, insulate it, and have a heat lamp I could turn. We haven't had a hard freeze here (10 miles North of Woodville, TX) yet this winter but we did last winter. During a hard freeze I drain everything and do without water for a few days even with insulation and a heat lamp.

 

[Valveman]

No you don't want to use a CSV with a galve tank and/or a hole for a bleeder. If you need the galve tank for iron, sulfur, or whatever, you will just have to live with all the problems that go with the old style hydro-pneumatic tank system. If you plug the drilled hole and switch to a diaphragm style tank, the CSV will make your life much easier.

 

[Reach4]

How about his fiberglass tank has a top port (I think it does), and he feeds water into the bottom. The tank acts as a settling tank, and water is drawn out the top. If the pump or electric fails, he fills containers from the drain valve he adds at the bottom.

 

[Mike77]

Thanks Reach4, yes I have a Flex-Lite fiberglass tank with a top port.

Cary, does the CSV have any electronic or electric controls besides the pressure switch? It must have an electronic controller to reduce the amperage going to the pump like it shows in the video but on the webpage here https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/products I don't see any electronic pump controller.

Cary, what do you think is the best way for me to plug the bleeder hole in the drop pipe? I am afraid to cut the drop pipe and in glue in a coupling since with the pump and 200 feet of pipe full of water it could weigh 200 pounds.

 

[Valveman]

No the CSV doesn't have any electric connections at all. The amperage of a pump just naturally reduces when the flow is restricted with a valve, any valve. That is just the way pumps work. People who sell those electronic controllers (VFD's) don't want you to know that pump amperage reduces naturally. They make a lot of money on those VFD controllers off people who don't know any better.

You could cut a coupling in half, and glue it on the pipe. Then use a hose clamp to secure the half coupling. Get the hose clamp on and tight before the glue starts to dry.

 

[Mike77]

How about his fiberglass tank has a top port (I think it does), and he feeds water into the bottom. The tank acts as a settling tank, and water is drawn out the top. If the pump or electric fails, he fills containers from the drain valve he adds at the bottom.

Reach4, The photo on the left looks like a CSV hooked up to a large pressure tank.

 

[Valveman]

That is a storage or cistern tank with a submersible in it attached to the PK1A kit.

 

[Mike77]

OK Cary, could I use my 80 gallon pressure tank in a similar manner with you CSV system?

 

[Valveman]

Sure there are lots of pictures in the reviews with large tanks as well. The CSV works fine with large tanks, they just aren't needed.

 

[Mike77]

Thanks Cary, you must be a genius to have figured out that restricting the flow to a submerged well pump reduces the amps the pump draws.
Do you have any documentation of this?
It seems to me that restricting the flow would make the motor draw more amps and over pressure the drop pipe?

 

[Valveman]

Yeah it is completely counter intuitive. Even Engineers who work for the major pump companies do not understand this. However, it is as plain as the nose on your face on any pump curve. That is all the documentation needed. Here is a typical pump curve showing the horsepower drops from 1.5HP to 0.4HP by simply restricting the flow to 1 GPM.

 

[Mike77]

I think I found the reason for the water logging. I drained the pressure tank and refilled it. Then I sprayed soapy water all over it. There are bubbles coming out of the threaded plug on the very top of the tank. So I am going to remove it and put teflon paste on the threads and put it back in.

Then to see if the tank is taking in air like it should and to get a reference point; with the pressure up to 55 psi and the contact points open I ran a hose in to a bucket. I opened the valve and watched as the pressure went down to 25 psi and the contact points closed then I had about 9 gallons of water that had run in the bucket instead of the 1.5 gallons I was getting when it was water logged.

Thank you Reach4 and Cary for your help. I am still considering getting a Cycle Stop Valve too.

Does an 80 gallon tank without a diaphragm apparently holding about 9 gallons of air sound about right?

 

[Reach4]

I think I found the reason for the water logging. I drained the pressure tank and refilled it. Then I sprayed soapy water all over it. There are bubbles coming out of the threaded plug on the very top of the tank. So I am going to remove it and put teflon paste on the threads and put it back in.

Well done.

https://www.flexconind.com/fls dual port spec sheet lr.pdf says the Flexcon FLS tank ports are all 1-1/4" FNPT threads, so pipe compound and/or good PTFE tape would be called for.

This is different from the top port on a softener, which involves a gasket -- so no tape or pipe compound.

 

[Toepaz]

I have a fiberglass 80 gallon FlexLite FLS80D pressure tank with no diaphragm on a 200 ft deep well with a 1 hp Grundfos pump. It was installed by a professional well driller I paid $7,000 two and one half years ago who is now retired and doesn't what to come look at it. It took me a year and one half to build my house and move in so I have only been using my well for 6 months. Since I divorced my wife of 21 years for committing adultery with 5 men I am by myself and don't use much water.

Tapping the tank it sounds like it is 90% full of water. With just one cold water faucet open, the pump off, and the gauge at 50psi the water runs for 1minute and 23 seconds drops to 30psi then the pump runs for 8 seconds then shuts off for another 1 minute and 23 seconds. I have drained the tank several times with little change in the run time and I can't find any leaks.

I think with only an 8 second run time my pump will fail soon.

I am going to install an AO Smith (either a 36 or 86 gallon) tank with a diaphragm myself. I plan to follow this diagram unless I am advised otherwise.

My general question is what do I need to change to go from a pressure tank without a diaphragm to one with a diaphragm?

1. Do in need to replace the brass fitting which has the snifter/schrader valve and the pressure switch on it to eliminate the snifter/schrader valve?

2. Do I need to eliminate the weep hole I saw the well driller drill through the well pipe for air intake about 12 feet down?

3. I plan to get 2 friends to help me pull up the well pipe so I can eliminate the weep hole. The well driller installed the pump with 2 helpers and no platform or pipe pulling rig.
Should I just glue the weep hole shut or should I cut the pipe across the weep hole and glue in a coupling?
If need to install a coupling to eliminate the weep hole do they make one of a higher schedule like the well pipe is. It's the high grade schedule pipe that has built in couplings. I would hate for the well pipe and pump to drop.

Thanks in advance to anyone who advises me. May God bless you.