Well Pump Assistance

[6.7L_MegaCab]

I'm trying to help my parents figure out what is going on with their in-ground well pump. The well was drilled in 2003 at a depth of 55-68 feet (water-bearing) and 6 inches in diameter. Depth to water shows 45 feet after the well was completed.

The well records show that it has an estimated yield of 15 GPM. They said as the years went by, they haven't been able to run the water as long as they use to, and now, can barely run the water hose for about 10 minutes when the pump kicks off.

They have had a couple of well-drilling companies out and they said nothing is wrong. They do have a filter installed downstream in the garage but all the well folks keep saying is to remove the filters. They change the filters frequently, but I think that their water is just too hard to keep up, contributing to the problems.

The pressure tank is an original fiberglass tank that was installed about the time the house was finished being built (2003). I told them it's probably beyond it's life by now.

My question is this, could their problems be that the well wasn't drilled very deep and their demand is greater than the supply, or is it more likely that the pump is wearing out and needs to be replaced? Is there a way to test the pump or is it bad when it no longer pumps water?

I'm thinking that they would be better served with their in-ground pump filling up a 1500 gallon water tank and using a jet pump along with a CSV. I considered putting the CSV in line with the in-ground pump, but if the pump isn't able to keep up under pressure, it's a moot point.

Any ideas on what should or should not be done is greatly appreciated.

Here is a pic of their current setup, and within the last couple of years, they had that pump saver installed.

The filter canister in the pics is just for looks - supposedly the filter is removed.

 

[Reach4]

So you have already been told that it is not normal to have a cartridge filter or a valve between the pump and the pressure switch. Cartridge gone, and valve never closed. Good.



It is possible that the Pumptec is prematurely tripping, and could be re-calibrated. Or it could be what you suspect-- that the well is indeed not able to keep up with the usage, such as a 5 gpm garden hose.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

There are 3 main controls that maybe shutting off the pump.

1st is the pressure switch. What pressure range is the switch calibrated to and is it activating and shutting off the pump at the correct pressures?

2nd is the Pumptec controller. That controller monitors electrical current utilized by the pump and is intended to shut off the pump when too little current is drawn which would occur when the well has insufficient water causing the pump to draw air. That type of controller maybe utilized on a wide range of pumps so it does need to be correctly calibrated for that pump specifically.

3rd is the Pump. If there is insufficient water flowing over the pump motor, it can overheat and be shut off by a built-in thermal switch. If the pressure switch continues to call for additional water, once the motor cools off, the pump will become activated again until either the pressure switch shuts it down, or the motor becomes overheated again.

They are going to need to determine which of the above is causing the shutdown. A clamp on style ammeter will be a useful tool to determine if the pump is continuing to be fed power during the shutdown as well as to measure the current draw while it is running.

By the items placed on top of the pressure tank, it appears that the tank precharge pressure has not been checked for some time. Measuring the precharge will require a tire pressure gauge connected to the Shrader valve at the top of the tank, performed while the pump is shut off and a faucet opened to allow the plumbing system to drain to 0 psi. The tank air pressure should be typically 2 psi lower than the pressure switch activation setting. (ie: for a 40/60 system, tank precharge = 38 psi).

 

[6.7L_MegaCab]

Sorry all for the late reply. I checked my settings on here, but still don't receive notifications via email.

Thank you for the replies! When I was out there a couple of weekends ago, I asked my parents if the pressure tank was checked and they said that is what they were told. They have had two companies out this year alone, so I'd suspect someone did properly check the tank, but, as mentioned, the items on top are a telltale sign. I asked my Mom if she knew whether or not the pressure tank was drained and checked, but she wasn't certain.

The pressure switch is a 40/60.

I'm going to try to go back up there, hopefully, this weekend, to do the checks myself as recommended to see which way we need to go. It's a 6-hour drive, so definitely not next door lol. I do have an ammeter, so that will be an easy thing to check.

Ideally, if a well is a 15GPM well, what is the theoretical amount of time it should produce water continuously for average 2-person household use? If I did my calculations correct, that well only holds 19-33 gallons - which doesn't sound like a whole lot, but perhaps for only 2 people, it's an ideal volume.

 

[Reach4]

7 to 10 gpm is plenty for most houses, unless they are doing significant irrigation. So at that rate, the well would refill itself as fast as the water was drawn.

I suggest you take an pressure gauge and a garden hose thread pressure gauge with you. Consider an air compressor if you have or can borrow one. A bicycle pump would take a long time. A "250 psi" tire pump is no better, because those also take a really long time. A compressor with a CFM or SCFM rating at 40 psi would be much faster. https://www.viaircorp.com/portables/84p looks interesting, and has a CFM rating. I have not seen one, myself.

If the pump is not running, and the air pressure is above the cut-in, the pressure reading on the air tank and the water pressure will be about the same. That is useful only to compare the calibration of the two gauges. But that is a useful think to try.

Air precharge is only checked and set when the water pressure is zero.

When you post from there, remember to check for responses. ;-)

 

[6.7L_MegaCab]

Thank you! They just water various plants outside and top off the small koi pond when it needs it. I have an air compressor that fits the bill that I'll take along and pick up a couple of gauges next time I go to town. Thanks again for the info!

I'll be sure to check for replies more often as well!

 

[6.7L_MegaCab]

Sorry for the long delay. I had other things come up last minute that kept me from coming up to my folk's place until today. Sadly, I forgot my pressure gauge to stick on the end of a hose but managed to remember to bring the GPM gauge. So, with that said, here's what I found:

1. Pressure tank drained - 34 pSI - adjusted back to 38 PSI and waited about 10-15 minutes and checked again - still at 38 PSI.
2. Pressure switch was not set correctly - cut in was around 35 and the cutoff was about 65. Took a while, but adjusted that back to about 40/60
3. Pumptec Controller - it seems to be tripping prematurely, but not certain how else to tell. Pump isn't drawing power when it trips.

With that said, I attempted to run a test with the water hose off the pump house set to ~5 GPM - it took no less than 2-3 minutes for the Pumptec to trip. Pulling the front cover and reattaching didn't help much, it just tripped again. What we were looking for is to see a sign of air, but nothing, It seems when the pump kicks on, water is flowing nicely.

With the pump running, the ammeter showed 24-25 mA - which seems to be extremely low.

 

[Reach4]

3. Pumptec Controller - it seems to be tripping prematurely, but not certain how else to tell. Pump isn't drawing power when it trips.

You could try adjusting the Pumptec.

With the pump running, the ammeter showed 24-25 mA - which seems to be extremely low.

You are only supposed to put a clamp around one hot wire -- not two wires. If that is what you were doing, get a new meter.

 

[6.7L_MegaCab]

I'm a dummy. I looked at a few different ammeters a while back and one of them supposedly allowed testing on 2 and 3 conductor cables, but apparently that wasn't the one I ordered. Oh well. I thought that was strange considering it seemed to pump fine until that controller kicked it off.

I didn't have time to research that Pumptec unit, but it definitely was not apparent how to calibrate it as the only easily accessible POT was for the reset delay and its set for 12 minutes.

I'll be up here again soon. It works, but they now know when it trips they can set the clock for 12 minutes when it kicks back on. Apparently it's been set like that since it was installed in 2003.

 

[2stupid2fixit]

I'm a dummy. I looked at a few different ammeters a while back and one of them supposedly allowed testing on 2 and 3 conductor cables, but apparently that wasn't the one I ordered.

If you happen to find that device again please tell me what it is because in my mind it would have to pick and choose the induction to measure from each wire and I can't mathematically work out how it could do so. I would think it measures all or nothing. How does the device know that 2 conductors are separated by insulation?

 

[6.7L_MegaCab]

I think it was a Megger MMC850, but I couldn't find it to purchase or a price. The one I bought said muti-conductor, but what it really meant, was multi-conductor with the conductors separated. I don't know why it's so hard for companies to state that - chinese junk I guess - but it works great measuring single conductors. The fluke 355 says that as well, but it also says if current is moving in the same direction, more than one conductor can be measured (I think they should have just said DC?) - I didn't buy that either as it is way out of my price range.

I couldn't measure any single conductor on my parents setup because whoever installed it, all of the wires going into and out of the pressure switch and that Pumptec left zero room to put the clamp around any single conductor.

 

[Reach4]

The fluke 355 says that as well, but it also says if current is moving in the same direction, more than one conductor can be measured (I think they should have just said DC?)

Most clamp-around ammeters only measure AC. There are exceptions, and they will make a fairly big deal of it in the description, for good reason.

If you clamp around two wires, you will get the algebraic sum of the currents, where currents 180 out of phase would cancel each other out for measuring the currents. The 25 milliamps observed probably should have read zero in a perfect metering situation. 10 amps -10 amps is zero. But there are probably imperfections in the uniformity of field pickup, so there was incomplete cancellation.

If you put the current clamp around two adjacent hot wires in a breaker panel, you should read the sum of the currents. That is because the two currents are pretty much in phase with each other. Adjacent hots are on the same leg of the split phase power.

 

[Valveman]

How does the device know that 2 conductors are separated by insulation?

That would be resistance measured with an ohm meter.

 

[Valveman]

all of the wires going into and out of the pressure switch and that Pumptec left zero room to put the clamp around any single conductor.

You would need to take the face plate off of the breaker box but there is usually plenty of room to clip around a single wire there.

 

[6.7L_MegaCab]

Thanks @valveman Yeah I know and the main breaker box is mounted on the pump house as well - it was getting late and I was done messing with it. I'll make my way back up there eventually. I had contemplated bypassing that Pumptec unit to see how long I could run the pump for without it - but I didn't bring any of my electrical stuff (pliers, wire nuts, tape, etc) to do so.

Now that I'm thinking about it, maybe there is something wrong with the Pumptec or pump - based on my calculations, that well should hold at least 30 gallons - but when I was measuring the GPM, the Pumptec would trip after 10-15 gallons. Wait a few minutes, same thing.

Another comment was made as well - the outside sillcocks on the side of the house were recently replaced with anti-siphon sillcocks - the plumber that did the work claimed he could hear air in the water (how, I have no clue). My mom said sometimes they would start leaking water all over the patios - which may be happening when the Pumptec trips before the pressure tank refills. Running from the sillcocks on the side of the pump house, we didn't observe any air or bubbles coming out of the hose - just a nice steady flow based on the pressure in the tank.

Of note - the couple of well-drilling companies that's been out, as I've mentioned before, said to get rid of the filters - so I removed the large/long canister filter in the pump house (missed it in the photo above), and there was no filter in that smaller one. The exact same thing was happening with them installed, so I don't think the filters had anything to do with it.

@Reach4 - that makes more sense with regards to the ammeter readings - it would intermittently read zero, but was mostly reading 25 mA. Thanks for clarifying on how to connect to the hot wires - I see what I did wrong.

I'll keep y'all posted on what we do next. My mom was saying she can hardly fill up her bathtub without the thing tripping.