Water Pressure Issue

[zcarano]

Hello all,
I'm having an issue with my water pressure where my water runs out after so many minutes of use. Inside my house seems to be fine. We can shower and use sinks/laundry/dishwasher no problem. When I use a hose outside my water runs out in about 5-10 minutes. The hose runs to a slow trickle, and after about 30-60 seconds it kicks back on at full pressure. It will continue to do this over and over again.

With the hose on, I went into the basement and watched the pressure gauge. It was dropping to zero before the pump kicked on and it would quickly jump back up to 40. The psi would slowly increase to about 55 before turning off. I replaced the gauge, then the pressure switch and I'm having the same issue. I have a 40/60 switch and I verified that the pressure in the tank when it's empty is right at 38 psi.

The psi wouldn't seem to increase beyond 55psi unless I shut off the hose and gave it a few minutes. The pump would then kick on and it would increase to 60psi before shutting off.

I found a well pressure tank "test" that instructed me to turn on the kitchen sink and wait for the psi to drop and the pump to kick on. Once the pump kicked on we shut off the kitchen sink and timed how long until the pump turned off. During this test the psi dropped to the correct 40psi before turning on and then off at 60psi. It took 35 seconds to complete that cycle. The test said that if it was less than a minute the tank was probably bad.

Today I replaced the tank and the entire T assembly. I ran the kitchen sink for about 20 minutes and it seemed to cycle properly. Once I used the hose I'm having the exact same issue.

Before writing this post I performed the following steps:

- Turned off power to the well
- Drained the tank
- Double checked the empty pressure and it's at 38psi
- I turned power back on
- Pump immediately turned on and increased psi to 50psi before turning off
- 2 minutes passed and the pump turned on once again and increased to 60psi before turning off again
- Turned on the kitchen sink and watched psi slowly drop
- Pump turned on just above 50psi (Should've turned on at 40psi)
- 2 minutes passed and once again the pump turned on and increased to 60psi before turning off
- Kitchen sink still running, pressure dropped to 38psi and then quickly to 35psi and the pump turned on
- Pressure increased to 48psi and the pump turned off
- Pressure decreased to 42psi and the pump turned on
- Pressure increased to 50psi and the pump turned off
- Turned off the kitchen sink
- Waiting a couple of minutes and the pump turned on again increasing pressure to 55psi before turning off
- Another couple of minutes went by and the pump turned on increasing to 60psi

Before I go replacing the well pump, any suggestions on next steps or possible causes would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Zach

 

[Reach4]

I found a well pressure tank "test" that instructed me to turn on the kitchen sink and wait for the psi to drop and the pump to kick on. Once the pump kicked on we shut off the kitchen sink and timed how long until the pump turned off. During this test the psi dropped to the correct 40psi before turning on and then off at 60psi. It took 35 seconds to complete that cycle. The test said that if it was less than a minute the tank was probably bad.

Could be

1. undersized tank
2. bad air precharge
3. bad tank.

- Pump turned on just above 50psi (Should've turned on at 40psi)
- 2 minutes passed and once again the pump turned on and increased to 60psi before turning off

How can you tell if the pump is on or off?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[zcarano]

Could be

1. undersized tank —- replaced my 20 gallon with a 32
2. bad air precharge —- I verified the empty tank is charged to 38 psi
3. bad tank. —- tank is brand new

How can you tell if the pump is on or off?

I can hear the switch click on and then off.

 

[Ryan Symons]

Post a pic of your setup

 

[Reach4]

That picture will be good.

I can hear the switch click on and then off.

Got it.

Also,

1. get a clamp-around ammeter to see if the pump is drawing current during the mystery off times. Clip around one wire at a time.
2. Measure the voltage across the wires out of the pressure switch to make sure the contacts are making
3. If there is a control box, there could be a failure that delays starting. The most predictable would be the start capacitor failing. The start capacitor will be the biggest or only capacitor in the control box.

 

[zcarano]

Here is the picture of the setup.

I'll pick up one of those clamp-arounds today and test the current/voltage out of the pressure switch.

I do not have a control box. Just the 40/60 pressure switch.

 

[Valveman]

A new 40/60 switch should dependably turn the pump on at 40 and off at 60. The nipple to the switch could be clogged? But usually when a pump is turning on or off at random pressures and going to zero occasionally the overload in the motor is tripping. The overload trips and the pressure goes to zero. Then it will just cool down in a short time and turn the pump back on at a random pressure. This happens when a pump has cycled on and off as many times as it was built to do. Even a pressure tank large enough to give a minute of run time is causing the pump to cycle every couple of minutes, and there are 1440 minutes in a day. Cycling is what destroys tank bladders, pressure switches, check valves, and will also surely destroy the pump and make it star tripping the overload.

You can still add a Cycle Stop Valve, and it should go in place where you take that un-needed check valve out of line before the tank. That is a way bigger and more expensive tank than you needed with a CSV, but it will still work fine.

 

[zcarano]

The switch is brand new as is the nipple to the switch. I inspected the old nipple when disassembling the old T and it didn't appear to be clogged with sediment. However the old check valve did look a little clogged. I have iron in my water so that was an initial concern.

I wasn't aware that the submersible pump had an overload function. I thought the pump would only be on or off when needed. If the pump has been overloaded for a while now, is there damage that's already been done?

I will look into a cycle stop valve. It looks like I'll have to order one like this: https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/residential-pump-control-valves/products/csv1a because local Home Depots or Lowes don't seem to have them.

 

[Valveman]

Yep, once it starts tripping the overload considerable damage has already been done. Cycling on/off causes pieces of the thrust bearing to grind off and builds up in the motor, The bearings are damaged and the debris causes the rotor to bind up, tripping the overload. A check valve clogging would not cause those issues.

LOL no you will not find a CSV at any of the box stores. I was going to make an orange version years ago. But I was told these stores would not carry the CSV as it is a disruptive product. That means it makes pumps, switches, capacitors, check valves, tank bladders, and everything else last longer. They were afraid, and rightfully so, that sales of all there pumps, tanks, switches, etc., would decrease dramatically.

I always thought if you built a better mousetrap people would beat a path to your door. I never expected to be chastised for coming up with something that makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks. But there are a lot of people who make money on pumps and tanks. Many of them will do or say anything to keep you from finding out about or believing what a CSV will do for you.

You can put a CSV where you remove the check valve as long as there are no hydrants or tees prior to that.

 

[zcarano]

Bummer about the pump, looks like I'll be going to get one of those soon. That unfortunately makes way too much sense about the box stores.

I'm still going to take Reach4's advice and make sure there isn't a short anywhere but I'm also going to get one of those CSVs. There are no hydrants or tees prior to my check valve. The water line comes in directly from outside, has a little elbow directly into the check valve so I should be good to go.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[Jadnashua]

A larger pressure tank might let the pump rest more in between cycles, but is it possible that you're trying to use more water faster than the well can recover from? If that's the case, a cycle stop valve won't help as the pump would still be trying to pump air.

 

[zcarano]

I made some measurements today.

Static water level is down 63 feet from the top of the cap.
Pump is sitting at just over 150 feet from the top of the cap.
The well casing is 8"

I found a quick formula to calculate volume and it comes out to right around 227 gallons. I would think that's plenty of water?

I also discovered something that I didn't notice before:

When I turn on my kitchen sink and watch the gauge, the pressure slowly drops from 60 to 40 psi then the switch kicks on and the pump starts. That's great except the pump turns off at about 50 psi. At that time I had the cap off the switch and I noticed that the switch was still on. A couple of minutes passes and the pump starts up again this time increasing to 55 psi before turning off. Again, the switch is still on. Another couple of minutes passes and the pump turns on again this time increasing to 60 psi and the switch clicks off.

When I was listening for the on/off of the switch before I believe I may have been wrong about what was "Clicking" on and off and what was actually just the pump stopping and starting, in some cases.

I verified that the power to the pump is good so at this point I think I have a malfunctioning pump. I'm going to order and replace.

Thanks,
Zach

 

[Reach4]

When I turn on my kitchen sink and watch the gauge, the pressure slowly drops from 60 to 40 psi then the switch kicks on and the pump starts. That's great except the pump turns off at about 50 psi. At that time I had the cap off the switch and I noticed that the switch was still on. A couple of minutes passes and the pump starts up again this time increasing to 55 psi before turning off. Again, the switch is still on. Another couple of minutes passes and the pump turns on again this time increasing to 60 psi and the switch clicks off.

When I was listening for the on/off of the switch before I believe I may have been wrong about what was "Clicking" on and off and what was actually just the pump stopping and starting, in some cases.

I verified that the power to the pump is good so at this point I think I have a malfunctioning pump. I'm going to order and replace.

Nice analysis.

A 7 gpm 3/4 HP pump would be good. Do use a flow inducer sleeve.

 

[Valveman]

Unfortunately, that is the overload in the motor tripping. One of these times soon it just won't come back on.

 

[Jadnashua]

Make sure that you're getting the proper voltage to the pump. Feeding it low voltage means trying to draw more current and running slower which can cause it to heat up faster. A burnt contact or faulty contactor might, at least theoretically give you that symptom as could a loose or corroded connection.