Water Furnace Blower Question

[Gary Bowling]

I have a 16 year old water furnace Envision Vertical unit with ECM fan.

A few days ago I started hearing a bit of a noise coming from my unit when the thermostat goes off. On this unit, when it goes off, the fan runs slowly for a while. So investigating, it seems like when the motor is running slow there is a bit of a vibration, like it's a bit out of balance. I didn't hear it when it's running, but now when I'm next to it and it's running there is a very slight vibration.

It's not a bad vibration, just very slight and it wasn't there before.

If I turn the unit off and check the motor/fan, it all turns smoothly and I don't notice any play or slop in any of it. I've checked for something loose but find nothing there either.

The motor is a 14P516B01 which seems to be a GE Genteq ECM 2.3 1/2 HP Blower Motor 5SME39HL0252, which I can find a source for. The Blower is a 53P501B01 which I have not found yet.

Is there any way to tell if this is a motor issue or a blower issue? I would think the motors are more prone to failure than the blower, but I have no experience to back that up.

I live in a rural area in Northern MI, it's cold here and I can't do without heat for any appreciable amount of time. So I'm trying to understand if I should order something and either go ahead and replace it or have it on hand in case of an outage. My service company is a long way away and they always take days to show up and then would probably have to order parts. If it goes out, it would take them at least a week to get it running. So it's better if I can either do it or have the parts on hand. Thanks for any help.



UPDATE: It looks like the blower is just a fan on the end of the motor shaft. So there appears that the only way that could cause the issue is if it got something on it or damaged to cause it to be out of balance. Which is not really even possible as it's in my house in a safe space on the other side of the filter. Due to this, it looks like the most probably cause is the motor. I'll probably go ahead and order a motor to have it here in case it dies.

 

[Fitter30]

Have a muilti meter ? There is a lot of diagnostics on the web for that motor. Just Google the GE Genteq ECM 2.3 1/2 HP service manual. Also the service manual on the air handler.
There is many things that can cause you problem.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Packard-46012-Wiring-Manual.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjb3aaumpj8AhWCM30KHfk-CjgQFnoECAsQAg&usg=AOvVaw2d5TBtTxj4BpLCqo_3W7yq

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gary Bowling]

Have a muilti meter ? There is a lot of diagnostics on the web for that motor. Just Google the GE Genteq ECM 2.3 1/2 HP service manual. Also the service manual on the air handler.
There is many things that can cause you problem.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Packard-46012-Wiring-Manual.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjb3aaumpj8AhWCM30KHfk-CjgQFnoECAsQAg&usg=AOvVaw2d5TBtTxj4BpLCqo_3W7yq

Thanks very much for that info. However, that EC Max is not compatible with my motor, in that document on page 4 it has the following note:

EC Max is not compatible with the following applications
• HVAC systems that were originally supplied with Constant Airflow ECM also
known as Variable Speed such as genteq models 2.0, 2.3, 2.5, 3.0 and Eon;

Mine is a genteq ECM 2.3, so this is not the same.

However based on your search information I was able to find some information and check a few voltages and operation. Everything I tested shows it to be in good working order. Which is not surprising because right now everything is working correctly but I have this "new" and odd vibration as I mentioned in the original post.

My concern is that the motor is failing causing this new vibration and I have no idea when/if it will actually fail. Came here to get some advice from more experienced people who might have some ideas about this very slight vibration. Purchasing a new motor might be a good idea just because if it does fail I'll be prepared. The unit is 16 years old and even if it doesn't fail soon, it's probably not going to last forever.

 

[LLigetfa]

UPDATE: It looks like the blower is just a fan on the end of the motor shaft. So there appears that the only way that could cause the issue is if it got something on it or damaged to cause it to be out of balance. Which is not really even possible as it's in my house in a safe space on the other side of the filter.

Have you tried cleaning the fins on the fan? I've had to clean the fans on my HRV that are behind filters.

 

[Gary Bowling]

Have you tried cleaning the fins on the fan? I've had to clean the fans on my HRV that are behind filters.

I have not done that, but that is a good idea. I'll do that today.

 

[Fitter30]

Pull the blower then the motor dish soap and clean the wheel and housing. If you want pull the motor apart re oil the bearings with either 10 w non detergent oil or zoom spout oil. Might need a wheel puller.Grabs the hub.

https://www.amazon.com/Primeswift-FBP100-Blower-Puller-Center/dp/B07WC5FYLZ/ref=asc_df_B07WC5FYLZ/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=385215532707&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6485822481060437027&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9023649&hvtargid=pla-825581273401&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=73789134890&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=385215532707&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6485822481060437027&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9023649&hvtargid=pla-825581273401

 

[Gary Bowling]

Got this apart, the blower is really clean, I did clean it some more but it is not the problem. Once out, I was able to get a good hold on the motor shaft and it does have some play in it. Actually fairly noticeable play. So it has a bearing going bad and as it gets more play it will go quickly.

In looking for a replacement, GE Genteq ECM 2.3 1/2 HP Blower Motor 5SME39HL0252, I can find refurbished motors. However, I have discovered that there are some electronics inside the motor that are generally programmed specifically for the manufacturer. So even though you find the same model, it may not work correctly.

Has anyone had experience with this?

 

[Fitter30]

Side by side play on big deal. These ecm need to be diagnosed no ifs and or buts. Can be the electronics at the motor or were there getting the signal. Need a service person to diagnose or spend 1k on a new motor and gamble.

 

[Gary Bowling]

Haha, Nah that's not the way I roll. Diagnosing it isn't rocket science. On my unit per the manual, when Y1 comes on it immediately starts the motor in low speed, and after 15s it switches to medium speed. On stage 2, when Y2 comes on, there is a 15s delay then it switches the motor to high speed. I don't have a 3rd stage, which is emergency heat, but the 3rd stage doesn't do anything to the blower as it's already on high from the 2nd stage.

I have checked all the Y1/Y2 outputs, they are fine. On my unit the Y1/Y2 connections go to the processor. From the processor it only uses 5 wires of the 16 pin block to the ECM motor. One for C2, on/off, RPM, PWM, and RPM/gnd.

I have also verified with the old motor that everything from the processor works as it should as it starts and changes speeds at the appropriate times per the operation of Y1/Y2 above. Since this is the case I can monitor the three appropriate pins to the motor to see what they do at each change. Three pins because two of the pins are ground. Actually it's really just two pins as one pin is just turning it on/off, but I do want to know the voltage of that signal.

On my motor, as I've said, it's really the bearing that is going bad. You can feel play in the shaft and it's making more and more noise and vibration. A sure sign the bearing is going bad.

The tricky thing with these motors is the motor control module that is part of the motor itself. That control unit receives the 3 signals from the processor and responds accordingly and that control is specific to water furnace and maybe even to this specific model of WF. But that control module separates from the actual motor and is connected via a connector block. The communication from the control module to the motor follows the ECM 2.3 spec, so that's going to be the same for any ECM 2.3 motor. So the 3 signals from the processor, specific to WF, communicate to the motor control module, also specific to WF, which translates their signal to a standard ECM 2.3 signal.

On my unit, the signals from the processor are good, and the signals from the motor control unit are also good as the motor appropriately dances to the Y1/Y2 signals. So I think I could actually purchase the same model ECM 2.3 motor and mate up my existing motor control unit with it and all would be good.

 

[Fitter30]

Haha, Nah that's not the way I roll. Diagnosing it isn't rocket science. On my unit per the manual, when Y1 comes on it immediately starts the motor in low speed, and after 15s it switches to medium speed. On stage 2, when Y2 comes on, there is a 15s delay then it switches the motor to high speed. I don't have a 3rd stage, which is emergency heat, but the 3rd stage doesn't do anything to the blower as it's already on high from the 2nd stage.

I have checked all the Y1/Y2 outputs, they are fine. On my unit the Y1/Y2 connections go to the processor. From the processor it only uses 5 wires of the 16 pin block to the ECM motor. One for C2, on/off, RPM, PWM, and RPM/gnd.

I have also verified with the old motor that everything from the processor works as it should as it starts and changes speeds at the appropriate times per the operation of Y1/Y2 above. Since this is the case I can monitor the three appropriate pins to the motor to see what they do at each change. Three pins because two of the pins are ground. Actually it's really just two pins as one pin is just turning it on/off, but I do want to know the voltage of that signal.

On my motor, as I've said, it's really the bearing that is going bad. You can feel play in the shaft and it's making more and more noise and vibration. A sure sign the bearing is going bad.

The tricky thing with these motors is the motor control module that is part of the motor itself. That control unit receives the 3 signals from the processor and responds accordingly and that control is specific to water furnace and maybe even to this specific model of WF. But that control module separates from the actual motor and is connected via a connector block. The communication from the control module to the motor follows the ECM 2.3 spec, so that's going to be the same for any ECM 2.3 motor. So the 3 signals from the processor, specific to WF, communicate to the motor control module, also specific to WF, which translates their signal to a standard ECM 2.3 signal.

On my unit, the signals from the processor are good, and the signals from the motor control unit are also good as the motor appropriately dances to the Y1/Y2 signals. So I think I could actually purchase the same model ECM 2.3 motor and mate up my existing motor control unit with it and all would be good.

Glad u could diagnose it and that it not one that sell for over 1k.

GE Genteq ECM 2.3 1/2 HP Blower Motor 5SME39HL0320 39L2601 HL0300 - Remanufactured HVAC ECM Blower Motors - United HVAC Motors

Purchase today and receive FREE Same Day Shipping & FREE 12 Months Warranty!

unitedhvacmotors.com

 

[Gary Bowling]

So I wound up purchasing a used ECM 2.3 motor that was for a water furnace, the same model as mine. That way the motor control section is the same as mine. It appeared to be in good shape, went in without a hitch and works perfectly.

I then took the old motor to my shop and took it apart. Two things were very apparent, first it had quite a bit of rust inside, which is what caused the bearing to fail. Dust from the rust penetrated the bearing and caused it to literally grind like you put sand in it.

The 2nd thing that was apparent is that the motor indeed has two bearings, front and back, that are 6203 bearings. 6203 bearings are quite common and can easily be replaced. I'll order two new bearings, replace them, and have a spare motor in case something happens to the used one I put in.

But what caused it to rust? Probably two things, first the unit is in the basement and it's pretty humid down there in the summer. But also in the summer, the blower is in the same box as the condenser coil, which of course during A/C operation produces water. And the motor is NOT sealed in any way nor did the internals have any sort of grease or lubricant protection on any of the parts.

When I clean up and refurbish my old motor, I'll put a thin layer of grease on the rotor and other parts to help mitigate against this in the future. I may also look to see if there is a way to spray some lubricant through some of the open holes in the motor chassis. Might be something to add to the yearly maintenance on the installed one.

It's all been a learning experience and points out something that is common these days. The manufacturers go to great lengths to prevent people from doing their own maintenance. You can't buy parts and even the parts they buy are manipulated such that it's difficult to find OEM parts or repair. This in order to charge exorbitant rates for service and make more profits.

I know in several industries this has gone so far that they are now introducing and in some cases have passed "right to repair" laws. This has mostly been targeted at Tractor manufacturers who have gone out of their way to make it difficult for farmers to repair their equipment. Hopefully this will permeate other industries as well. I'm not against manufacturers or service companies making an honest living. But like many things in our society, some times it goes a bit too far.

 

[Fitter30]

Have a bypass or fan type humidifier mounted on the return air?