Toto Drake 1.6 vs Toto Drake 1.28 vs. Toto Entrada (vs. AS Champion 4 max?)

[Fun2Learn]

I posted a few weeks ago about looking for a toilet under $200 , but am willing to go a bit over after reading lots of negative and/or mixed reviews of cheaper toilets. I am leaning towards one of these Toto's, all about the same price on Home Depot's site: Toto Drake 1.6 gal, Toto Drake 1.28 gal., and Toto Entrada (1.28 gal). Would I be correct in assuming that the Toto Drake 1.6 gallon would work the best as far as flushing and bowl cleaning and providing a larger water surface? If not necessarily better, would the Entrada work as well as the Drake 1.28? It is a bit cheaper and narrower, which I like. (Water savings isn't a big issue for us (we have our own well and live in the very well-watered, down-right soggy state of Maryland.)

I like the fact that the elongated bowls of the Toto's aren't much longer than my current old round American Standard! I decided that I don't care much about the height--I can see pros and cons of both standard height and "comfort height" and this is going in a kids/guest's bathroom)

Just for the heck of it--how does the latest, new and improved American Standard Champion 4 max compare to those Toto's for flushing, bowl cleaning, maintenance, etc.? It is a bit cheaper (and includes a seat and their Everclean surface. I can't afford the CEFIONTECT Totos.)
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me! I never thought picking out a toilet could be so complicated, but with using such little water I am worried!

 

[Terry]

The newer toilets work better than the old toilets. A lot better.

Any of the TOTO toilets work great. And if you want to flush with more water, just hold the handle down instead of a push and release.
The water is the same in the bowl for both the 1.28 and the 1.6

If you opt for American Standard, I prefer the Cadet series. The parts are more similar to the TOTO tank parts.

 

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[WJcandee]

I think the Entrada is a Best Buy. And don't just look at HD. Your local plumbing supply (look in the Yellow Pages and call like 3 nearby ones) may have even better prices; HD's prices are weird on Toto.

 

[Fun2Learn]

Thanks so much for the replies, Terry and Wise One!

So, Terry--if I understand you correctly, are you saying that the Eco Drakes with 1.28 are lots better than the older (but still available for sale)Drakes with the 1.6 gal. flush? Wow--that is amazing. Or did you mean that the Drake II's were better than the regular Drakes"? Or were you just saying that about toilets in general being better than the older versions? (By the way, I was surprised that consumer reports didn't rate the Eco Drake or Drake II as well as the higher rated Drake with the 1.6 flush.??? I wonder why? ) Home Depot sells the 1.6 Totos cheaper than the 1.28's. Is it worth it if you don't have to worry about paying a water bill?

I can't tell from the product information on the Toto or Home Depot site if or why the Drake is better than the Entrada. I assume it must be as the Drake is more money?

Wise one--I tried calling the big, local plumbing supply house, but they only sell to the public through a fancy schmancy retail store in my area. I remember walking into that store several years ago and got a good case of price sticker shock, as well as feeling totally out of place! I will look some more though, just in case there is another one that I can find that will sell to the public without having to pay for the high overhead of a gorgeous showroom in the high rent district!

By the way, some of the reviews of Toto's on the HD website mentioned the trapways not being glazed, as advertised. is that something that is hard to tell, or did Toto have some quality control issues come up occasionally?

Almost every single brand and model of toilet I looked at had at least some mixed reviews, making me wonder if China (or Mexico or wherever they are made) is a place where they do not have good quality control! It is so frustrating these days, you never know if you will get a lemon or not, whether it is a toilet or whatever you are buying that is made overseas (almost everything, unfortunately! But that is another topic, LOL!)

Thanks, again.

 

[Fun2Learn]

oops- I just realized that not all Toto Drakes with 1.28 gallon flushes are called Eco drakes. Is the difference just that the Eco Drakes have the "comfort height" seat?

 

[WJcandee]

People get confused about what "glazed" means., It doesn't necessarily mean a smooth shiny finish. It can be a rough finish, which is what Toto has in its traps, intentionally. But there is schmutz in there that is baked on. A smooth finish actually provides a surface that is easier for some stuff (clogging stuff) to stick to. Typical of people who don't know a dang thing about toilets to be bitching in reviews. And not to be mean, but the HD reviews always seem to be written by a particularly-nitwit-y bunch. On anything that I know anything about, I constantly read reviews there by people who give something 1-star and return it, when the "problem" they are describing is either normal or inconsequential. It's just that they feel entitled to exercise their right to offer a completely-uninformed opinion, and return the item, which just makes stuff more expensive for the rest of us.

The deal is this: The 1.6 Drake, of which I have 2, is a great toilet. The only difference between the 1.6 Drake and the 1.28 Drake today is that the 1.6 has the guts in the tank adjusted to put a smidge more water in the flush. That's it. The bowl is the same bowl, with a different tank. And it's the same design of porcelain in the tank, just a different amount of water coming out the spigot. It makes basically no difference. If the 1.6 is cheaper, no reason not to get it, except that it won't be eligible for a Watersense rebate if your local water company offers one.

Terry is saying that the most recent toilet designs, broadly speaking, are better than the older ones. But since Toto was the first to have great-flushing toilets across its product line, count that out. Everyone else is slowly catching up, as Toto moves to a good-flushing 1.0gpf toilet, popular in places like California.

Forget the big plumbing supply. Just open the Yellow Pages to Plumbing Supply, and see listings for little places, places that plumbers go. Doesn't matter if they say in their ad that they carry Toto, they can usually get it. Decide what model you want, and give them the model number and color and ask for their price if you were to come in and order it today. That way you are a serious purchaser, not a tire-kicker, which is what showrooms (and their high prices) are for. Call 5. Some will be mean. Some will be nice. Some will be high. Some will be low. If you can get nice, and low, that's the winner.

The EcoDrake (CST744E) is the Original Drake (CST744S) with a 1.28gpf tank. The Drake II (CST454CEFG) is a totally-different model, which comes standard with the higher-height, the Cyclone flush (which is nice but not essential by any means -- gives a little-better bowl wash), 1.28gpf tank, and CEFIONTECT (Cefiontect, it's called now) glaze that makes the bowl a little slippier for solids sticking. The Entrada uses the same flush as the Original Drake, called the GMax flush. Works great. It's a little-less porcelain sizewise, which may account for the lower price. The quality is excellent, as is the quality of the Drake and other Totos. Excellent quality control is their hallmark, unlike, say, AS, although AS is slowly improving.

Bottom line is that if you like the appearance of the Entrada, by all means get it. You will be very happy with its quality and performance.

 

[Fun2Learn]

Thank so much, Wise One! Thanks for explaining about the glazed trap and the differences between toilets! I will call around on Monday to find supply houses that carry Toto. I don't mind the looks of the Entrada, and like the fact that it might make my smaller bathroom look bigger, but since we will be selling our home this spring, I hope its unusual looks won't turn off any buyers. Probably most people in this area haven't even heard of Toto--I hadn't until I went internet "researching". (When I was in the toilet aisle at HD, I asked a clerk, who has worked in the appliance dept. for years, about Toto toilets and she had never heard of them! I informed her that they are highly rated and that they were sold on-line by them!) Thanks again!

 

[Terry]

Here are some interesting pictures from a recent American Standard toilet.
Notice the rust on the tank bolts after just a few years.

American Standard with rusting tank bolts.

TOTO uses some really nice brass bolts. Just one of the many reasons I like installing TOTO.

 

[WJcandee]

Thanks, Terry. You know I bought and used a set of Toto tank bolts just recently when having to reinstall a toilet tank. I had forgotten about that during our recent discussion in another thread about double nut tank bowl sets. You're right, the Toto set was very high quality

 

[Fun2Learn]

Ahh- and it probably saved American Standard a whole $2.00 to use the steel vs brass bolts, LOL! What about the systems, like Kohler advertises, where the bolts are on the outside bottom of the tank and don't go through the tank? (I just gotta wonder though, why wouldn't everybody use that if that kind of "outside the tank" bolt system works so well? )

Another question: just to verify: the Entrada, with its 1.28 gal flush and lower price point, flushes and cleans the bowl as well as the original Drake, 1.6 gal? I am leaning towards the Entrada.

Also, I have been reading lots of toilet reviews on the HD site (I am getting obsessed I guess) and though the Totos seem to have the best reviews consistently, a few people did not like the sort of "lip" or indentation at the water line on the Drakes--said it created a shadow that made it look like it was dirty. That might be partly due to individual lighting conditions, but that would drive me CRAZY! Does the Entrada have that indentation?

We are putting this home on the market come spring, and it is in what would likely be a kid's bath, so part of me wonders if I should just get a regular height toilet, with a name brand that most people recognize and wouldn't cost me as much! If I do decide to go that route, (cheap and/or possibly lower height) would you recommend a Kohler Wellworth (on sale for $128!) or American Standard Cadet 3 (American Standards are also on sale now.) I could also do Kohler Cimarron, if it is a lot better, because it is also on a good sale, but it has higher seat--not sure if that is a problem with kids or not.

If you do prefer the Cadet out of cheaper (non-Toto) models, which model?? There is a dizzying array of models on both the HD site, and the American Standard site!

Thanks!

 

[Fun2Learn]

BTW--I was originally thinking about the Glacier Bay or Lowes Aquasource, because the are so cheap, but there were enough bad reviews on the Glacier Bay to scare me, and the Aquasource only comes in elongated and comfort height (too big for my little bathroom!) Plus, I think potential home buyers might think "cheap" when they see the name brand, even if CR (your favorite rating magazine, LOL!) rates them well.
So--decisions, decisions.
Thanks again.

 

[Flapper]

What about the systems, like Kohler advertises, where the bolts are on the outside bottom of the tank and don't go through the tank? (I just gotta wonder though, why wouldn't everybody use that if that kind of "outside the tank" bolt system works so well? )

that is complete ridiculous garbage.