Too Much Water Treatment for Well Results?

[Beth W.]

It is wonderful to read these threads and to have solutions to so many water softener problems. I wonder if my sister is getting the correct well water treatment system based on the lab results. Are they over-treating the water?

I'm posting since she is still learning to use a computer. Would you please read and advise us on this? My sister is over 65 and lives by herself in a 100+ year old house in New York State. Rural area. Two full baths, one with shower only. One or two overnight guests 4 or 5 times a year. Front Loading washing machine but no dishwasher. One outside hose faucet. Not used much.

The house had a new well dug in the 1970s (?) but my sister doesn't know the depth or water flow rate. Water pressure in the shower isn't very good even with a new shower head installed. Pressure pump (air bladder) is set at 40/20. Old water softener not used since 2000. Water has sulfur smell. She hasn't told me if from hot or cold water or both. Water doesn't suds up well. The 4" X 10" Whirlpool whole house filter becomes black quickly. Has sediment.

The oil-fired hot water heater with be replaced with a TFI Everhot copper lined, rear flue, one soon after the water softener and everything get replaced. All equipment is in the cellar (basement) on the part that has a cement floor. Have sump pump, with back up, there, too.

KarLabs Results:

Calcium 46.3 mg/L
Magnesium 12.4 mg/L
Manganese 0.189 mg/L
Potassium 0.9 mg/L
Sodium, total, 28.7 mg/L
Iron 0.38 mg/L
Sulfur, total, by ICP 5.4 mg/L
Alkalinity (CaCO3) 194 mg/L
Bacteria E. Coli and Total Coliform negative
Bicarbonate (CaCO3) 193 mg/L
Carbonate (CaCO3) 1.14 mg/L
Color 15 Color Units
Conductivity 431
Corrosivity Langelier Index 0.3 S.U.
Corrosivity Rynar Index 7.2 S.U.
Hardness 167 mg/L and 9.7 grains per gallon
PH 7.8
Sulfate 15 mg/L
Turbidity 3.31 NTU
Total Dissolved Solids 290 mg/L
No nitrates, nitrites, arsenic or lead.

The old water softener is installed in a corner close to the electrical panel. Not to code. On the other side of the softener is the oil tank. The water treatment people want to move the pressure tank and switch to the opposite side of the basement. It is about 20' away from where the well water comes in. Plan is to have all the water treatment items grouped together after the pressure tank. They will put in an electrical outlet on that side of the basement for the water softener.

Equipment recommended:
EMEC=24 Chemical Feed System using Hydrogen Peroxide 7 percent, size 22" tall x 14" diameter, 2 yr. warranty $499.00
UT-80 /Retention Tank-fiberglass, 82" x 24", 5 yr. warranty $569.00
WS-1-TCF-10-MTM greensand filter for iron, manganese, sulfur, 64" x 10", $1,099.00
WS-1-MS-9-2 water softener, 58" x 9", Brine tank 33" x 18", $1,019.00 (can't read the warranty on these)
1 ResUp feeder $16.00
1 gallon resin cleaning solution $18.00
labor and materials to install $600.00

plywood to mount control and chem feeder and
20' of 1" black poly and wire to go across basement $100.00

Subtotal: $3,920.00
8 percent tax $313.00
Total $4,233.60

No price given for Hydrogen Peroxide per month. Does all this equipment for water treatment make sense for my sister's well water? Thank you. Beth

 

[ditttohead]

Sounds very good. My only concern is what are components? Make sure the softener is either Fleck or Clack and not some cheap knockoff. Same for the chemical injection pump. It should be a Stenner, LMI, Blue-White, Pulsafeeder etc. and not some knock-off that can be bought from China for <$50

As to the "Greensand" filter, it is great media but I do prefer Katalox light. Either will work fine though.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Beth W.]

Thank you for responding. The softener will have a Clack valve. I thought the chemical injection pump is EMEC-24 or does that mean something else? Will make sure they use one of your recommended pumps.
The filter suggested uses MTM which uses potassium permanganate for regeneration. What does Katalox Light use?
Why are both hydrogen peroxide and a filter with MTM or Katalox Light needed?

 

[ditttohead]

The h2o2 raises the DO, and oxidant levels of the water (ORP) which acts as a continuous regenerant for the MTM. MTM is an older media that is as commonly used as it used to be. It is a manganese dioxide coated substrate similar to KL, but with far less manganese dioxide. It is less expensive. I am also not familiar with the use of h2o2 with MTM, we typically recommend Chlorine and Pot-Perm. I will have to check the manufacturers recommendations to see if it is compatible.
http://www.clackcorp.com/downloads/ion_exchange_resin_and_filter_media/mtm_2353.pdf

 

[Beth W.]

Oh, it does look like MTM should not be used with hydrogen peroxide. Surprised the water treatment people would recommend it!
He told my sister he doesn't like to deal with chlorine, that "it can be nasty stuff ". He didn't mention needing pot-perm, as you call it, to regenerate the MTM. I read about it later when I looked up MTM.

I read on this site that often just a filter with Katalox Light + water softener would be enough. Doesn't always need h2o2. I don't see where the water treatment people did a test for dissolved oxygen in the water. What test is used?

 

[ditttohead]

ORP, DO, pH, and many other factors come into play with the use of a manganese dioxide ore based media. You can certainly see if they can use KL instead of MTM and add the oxidant injection later if it is needed.

Chlorine is fine but it needs to be very carefully controlled or you can use a high quality Catalytic Carbon instead of manganese dioxide ore based medias. This will dechlorinate the water. The carbon will need intermittent replacement as it "consumes" the chlorine which uses its capacity.

A simple air injector may also be used many times instead of chlorine or h2o2 injection. This can add a little air to your water... and it doesn't always work.

 

[Beth W.]

From Jan. 2, 2017 on this site I read that H2O2 injection is used to get rid of the sulfur smell, H2S. The water treatment guy wrote down Hydrogen Sulfide 5.4 but I doubt he did a separate test. It looks like he used the Sulfur reading. Do they correlate? Is just the smell enough to need H2O2 injection? Continuous, right? Also will it make the media last longer?

Order of installation?
Pressure pump,
chemical injection H2O2,
retention tank,
filter with Katalox light ( no pot-perm needed?) or something cheaper?
water softener

Thank you.

 

[ditttohead]

From Jan. 2, 2017 on this site I read that H2O2 injection is used to get rid of the sulfur smell, H2S. The water treatment guy wrote down Hydrogen Sulfide 5.4 but I doubt he did a separate test. It looks like he used the Sulfur reading. Do they correlate? Is just the smell enough to need H2O2 injection? Continuous, right? Also will it make the media last longer?

H2S is a gas and requires onsite testing as the gas will not be testable later. They do correlate but you can have one without the other.
Order of installation?
Pressure pump,
chemical injection H2O2,
retention tank,
filter with Katalox light ( no pot-perm needed?) or something cheaper?
water softener
That is correct. You can always try the KL system without the H2o2 injection and it can easily be added later. You can also try a simple and cheap micronizer air injector instead of h2o2 but this is a little hi and miss. The proposal you have is a system design that will work 95% of the time. Without the h2o2 injection and h2s, it works closer to 50-75 % of the time. The air injector in place of h2o2 injection is closer to 75-80 percent of the time... These estimates are not accurate, just trying to help you understand the concept. Since water is so varied in its contaminant levels, pH, temp, Competing ions, biologics etc, no single treatment system design is guaranteed to work every time.

 

[Beth W.]

Thank you. You are a font of knowledge! I appreciate the time and effort you take to help us out on this forum.

I will let my sister know the correct order of installation. She can ask to use Katalox Light instead of the MTM as you recommended. No potassium permanganate needed. Replace media after 6-7 years. H2O2 injection now or later. You offered good suggestions.

Trying to understand:
You mentioned "the h2o2 raises the DO, and oxidant levels of the water (ORP) which acts as a continuous regenerant..." Regenerates Katalox Light, too?

Do the levels of DO and ORP in the well water need to be measured before any filter with media based on manganese dioxide is used? Is this what you meant when you said "ORP, DO and, pH and other factors come into play"?

Water treatment person is not that familiar with Katalox Light but I hope he can learn . I'm older, too, and am willing to learn from experts like you. I'll send him some info. about it and the link you provided about MTM.

 

[ditttohead]

All manganese dioxide based medias can benefit from a regenerant. KL is the media that we find least likely to require it. MTM, Birm, Greensand Plus tend to need it more often. The variables in water make it very difficult to say if a regenerant will be required or not. While many companies and media manufacturers try to make claims as to the water requirements for a given application, the variables are simply to high to say for sure. If you read through the hundreds of posts from people on here re: iron reduction, you will notice a recurring theme, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Some people have great luck with chlorine, others have better results with H2o2... simply put, be prepared to add a little more equipment if the results are not satisfactory.

Hope this is helpful to you.

Ask your water treatment guy to call me. We distribute KL all over the US, and our knowledge of how to apply it is better than most.

 

[Beth W.]

Yes, thank you! The information is very helpful. I will ask my sister's water treatment guy to call you about Katalox Light. Very thoughtful of you to offer to speak with him. Hope he takes you up on it!