Timer for a submersible deep well pump

[matthew higdon]

That's it, but you may be able to set the current to detect when the pump is almost ready to run out of water. The box displays the current. When the water level drops, the current drops gradually before you run out of water. Then the current drops a lot when you actually run out. You adjust the setpoint as to what current to shut down at.

Want to see the current drop with your current configuration? Clip a clamp-around ammeter around one of your hot wires at the breaker panel, or pressure switch -- whatever is accessible .

With the SQ pump, no control box.

sorry, what do you mean by control box? please don't confuse me by swapping around terminology.

i do have a digital multi-meter. just not sure if it has ammeter function. if not, i'm sure my neighbor has one

and, this method of operation with the cycle sensor is safe/not hard on equipment? i hope you understand my concerns as this, to me, seems a bit of a kludge way of getting the same job done given it's a "fault" operation. i mean, i get how the timer set up is not exactly "safe" (though it has been performing reliably over these years), but i've also had to best guess the recovery rate when that's a fluctuating variable. so, there's that. perhaps that's not so much of an issue with the cycle sensor, though?

 

[matthew higdon]

i found the CS1PH3-15HP out of canada for less than half retail. it's new in box. would this unit work for our needs? my pump is 1/2hp and the monitor is rated for 15hp, but would it still do the job?

this?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[matthew higdon]

some more questions...

again, i don't have a pressure switch* connected with the pump. does this matter in regards to function of the cycle sensor?

also, is the cycle sensor SPDT? i ask because my neighbor (cert'd pro electrician) has the opinion DT is much safer than ST since the pump runs on 240v. or, does that even matter with the cycle sensor?

 

[Reach4]

sorry, what do you mean by control box? please don't confuse me by swapping around terminology.

At first I forgot you have an SQ pump, and thought you might have a pump control box. You have no pump control box.

i do have a digital multi-meter. just not sure if it has ammeter function. if not, i'm sure my neighbor has one

With the ammeter function on a regular multimeter, you have to interrupt the lines and put the meter in line. Most have a 10 amp fuse for amps, and that fuse is often blown because the user touched across a voltage source.

Ask the neighbor if he has a "clamp around" ammeter. The neighbor will recognize the term.

and, this method of operation with the cycle sensor is safe/not hard on equipment? i hope you understand my concerns as this, to me, seems a bit of a kludge way of getting the job done compared to the way i've been doing it with a timer. i mean, i get how the timer set up is not exactly "safe" (though it has been performing reliably over these years), but i've also had to best guess the recovery rate when that's a fluctuating variable. so, there's that. perhaps that's not so much of an issue with the cycle sensor, though?

Doesn't seem much different than what you were doing and planning to do with a timer, except it auto-adjusts to how much water is available.

 

[Chucky_ott]

Reach meant one of these: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-T...Digital-Clamp-Meter-with-Temp-CL210/207144572

you need to clamp around the hot conductor only, which would be exposed at several locations (panel, control box, etc). You can't use this around an extension cord for example, unless you remove the outer sheath and expose the hot conductor (keeping the insulation around the conductor intact, of course)

 

[matthew higdon]

okay..... i know what the ammeter is. my neighbor let me use his a long time when we were setting up a breaker panel for my house

well, this is all sounding really good. i really appreciate the input and patience ya'll have shared

 

[matthew higdon]

and, this method of operation with the cycle sensor is safe/not hard on equipment? i hope you understand my concerns as this, to me, seems a bit of a kludge way of getting the same job done given it's a "fault" operation.

i'm not an electrician by any means, but knowing what i do know and this concern still being in the back of my mind, i did some research....and even consulted with my neighbor...the electrician. he raised points no one who's been kind enough to help here has so far commented on. needless to say, my confidence in the long term safety of the cycle monitor approach has greatly waned. more later, for anyone interested. gotta go cut firewood

 

[Valveman]

OMG! My interest in helping you has waned. I am sorry that you and your electrician have never heard of it, but this type of dry well protection has been the standard in the industry for decades. Although the Cycle Sensor is the best one, it is just one of many brands of these devices on the market. I haven't had to kludge up a system with a timer since the 80's. Your getting free advice from someone with 50 years experience and a couple hundred thousand pump systems under his belt, and you still rather believe the neighbor. LOL! Maybe you would believe it if I charged you 300 bucks and hour like I do engineering firms that ask me questions like this? Just reading 27 posts takes a lot of time.

 

[matthew higdon]

i've been at this for three days, man. alot of back and forth reading when thorough explanation isn't exactly forthcoming from varying sources. i'm on borrowed time with this intermatic. if it quits in the next week, i'm fairly screwed. i don't know you, but i've learned alot on the internet about alot of things.....including here/this subject...in part because of your help (and others). i've also learned a great deal from my neighbor who's just as generous and knowledgeable. i know i'm vacillating and expressing frustration, but it's no different than when i had to crash course learn about vehicles. after alot of time and effort, i can now rebuild motors and efi systems quite well. i'm sure i've irked some folks in that process, too. thing is, within all of my learning of the multitude of subjects, i've also gotten really bad advise. so, terribly sorry if i don't know any better (yet) and i've stepped on toes within all this. doing the best i can. nice thing is, you've managed to post back with a bit of confirmation of my hopes that this monitor is viable despite what my neighbor does say. i'd rather have this go easy, but i'm quite ignorant on this matter. so, it hasn't. and, tell me...who am i supposed to trust more? most everyone knows more than i do. i'm at a bit of disadvantage, don't you think? anyway, it's nothing personal, so you don't have to make it so

 

[LLigetfa]

also, is the cycle sensor SPDT? i ask because my neighbor (cert'd pro electrician) has the opinion DT is much safer than ST since the pump runs on 240v. or, does that even matter with the cycle sensor?

The wiring diagram https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/cycle-sensor-pump-monitor-wiring-diagram-1ph shows L1 in and out, L2in and out.
As for what you call a fault condition, that is just one use case. These are also used on low producing wells where run-dry is not a fault but expected behavior.

 

[Valveman]

Funny thing is, you don't have any option. The SQ pump you have has the low amps thing built in, and there is no way to turn it off. It has probably been protecting your pump for years when the timers wasn't set perfect, and you didn't even know. The Cycle Sensor would just let you adjust the restart time longer than 5 minutes, which is all the SQ will do. You would be better off just wiring the float switch directly to the SQ pump and not use the timer.

Pumps are confusing. You will get a different answer from everyone you talk to. Can't find the little emoji that keeps banging his head against a wall. LOL!

 

[Johnny D]

@valveman (and others here) Thank you kindly for the time sharing the Cycle Stop Valves. In my set up I have a 1/2 horse well pump into a 300gal holding tank through a booster pump into a 120 gal Welltrol through a sediment filter into my carbon filter, water softener and then to my manifold. I am renovating a 3 story victorian that is going from 1 working bath to 4 the biggest tub and show combo on a 3rd floor - I prob over did it. I had not dealt with my limited water issue until now as I add the first large tub in my 2 yr ongoing reno. I really appreciate finding this thread. Currently my tank is not being used for its capacity and my floats manage only +/- ~100 Gal that wont run me dry. I can run ~8-10min before I run dry (my 100 Gal estimate I guess does not take that long) and my recovery has been ok though its been awhile so no useful data to share until I test it again. I had two ways to go about this the first was to reduce flow with the globe valve and monitor pump amperage and see what extended draw times might look like without spiking the pump and if my recovery can keep up. I see CSV offers a "Cycle Stop Valves" (new to me) so curious if my globe valve is usable. Second was a timer to fill for 5-8 minutes (maybe that is seen as a short cycle?) stop for couple hours and repeat. My 300 gal is plenty of water so this process needs not be expedited.
Now that I see this post with the Cycle Stop Sensor and I totally get how it works. I had my credit card ready then a concern surfaced. Prior to all my build out and with a new well pump (without any sediment protection), when it ran dry it pulled sediment into my toilets & fixtures. I have every reason to believe is still happening and would pull into the storage tank (has not happened since only because I manage my usage at the taps). I assume many don't have this happening or if they did would put sediment protection at the pump as I failed to do. So I worry if my plan is to try and fill 200-300 gallons (growing family and landscaping) that I will always run dry and I will always suck in sediment assume is a worry about the well pump health (it will just gather on the bottom of the holding tank- no concern there). I also am assuming this Cycle Stop Sensor shines as mentioned without a big pressure tank for continuous throttling with Cycle Stop Valve. So my question is given I have a 300 gal tank, large welltrol, and know I will be sucking dry on average with sediment should I default to a timer in my application? I am not sure if the globe valve/Cycle Stop Valve and measuring for safe amperage is going to solve my need for large gallonage and very shallow 100Ft drilled well.
So my questions are:

• Is a globe valve usable to throttle?
• If as mentioned a well pump runs 5amps - what do I look or as an increase where I back off restriction?
• Will constant running dry to full my tank with inferior 100ft well given my sediment issue damage my pump?
• Is a timer better given my over all use case?

I want to thank you in advance for sharing your experience, standards and I bring an opinion/concern. My current opinion is a timer is better for this use case but if the constant & I mean daily run dry (I need to stop caring) sediment is a non issue then I guess grab all the water I can and use best tech available. Looking forward to your opinions.

JD

 

[Valveman]

Globe valve or ball valve works fine as a throttle. If you know the well makes more sand when it is pumped dry, then don't pump it dry. The timer on for short times is a good way to do that. You can use the timer WITH a Cycle Sensor if you want. That way if the didn't have the timer set exactly right and it did pump the well dry, the Cycle Sensor would still shut the pump off before it melted down. The Cycle Sensor will display the amps. The amps will be lower than 5 just from the throttling valve to like 4 amps. Then it will draw maybe 2.5 amps if it pumps the well dry. So, you just set the Cycle Sensor to about 3 amps and it will let the throttling valve work and still protect the pump from running dry.

 

[Johnny D]

@valveman Makes complete sense to me for that setup. I like the idea that the Cycle Sensor will let me monitor my throttling over the course of time to assure things don't change stressing the pump and as I get into dry spells where my timing starts to fail. Could you point me to the right timer to put infront of the Cycle Sensor? As you can imagine my initial call to a supply house did not help me locate one that can run for minutes and then pause for a long cycle time. Without experience with these the specs online are really hard to navigate and hate to get the wrong product. Also you mentioned a soft start and like to get a sense of what a minimum time would need to be for the pump to be happy?

 

[Valveman]

Yeah lots of timers to choose from. You will need one that can handle the 5 amp load. Grainger maybe a good place to look. Post some links of ones your looking at and I well read the specs. Rule of thumb pumps need to run at least one minute and be off for one minute. But two minutes is better and running continuous is best. Sometimes you just have to set it to work with what you have.

 

[Kwolford]

Thank goodness for this thread. My situation…I’ve got a sizable cabin in the forest in Oregon. I bought 4 years ago and with changing climate and some drought seasons, the 1,000 ft. Well is getting slower to recover. I am only there on weekends with family and if we draw down the 1500 gallon cistern too low, there isn’t enough water recharge in the well to get the cistern to fill before we leave..after a few weekends, we have an empty cistern. The Cycle sensor sounds like a perfect solution…except, the previous owner had a 3 phase VFD (Weg) wired to a 3 phase 2 hp pump down 165 ft. He had a remote wired switch to push to spool up the VFD to pump at 5gpm. Question…is it possible to attach a Cycle Sensor to 3 phase pump? I read that it’s single phase only? If not, what would be my options? Would love to have the interval set at 5 hours so my cistern is full when I arrive on the weekends.

 

[Fitter30]

Contact CS because it might work ( but don't think so )on incoming power to the vfd .Guess your drive is set to run a set Hz to get 5 gpm. Wonder if lowering the HZ to 2.5 gpm would give you twice the run time and not run the well dry. Another way have to write a simple program with a flow switch if it doesn't make in 30 seconds shuts pump off for 30 minutes if it doesn't make shut down for 300 minutes, if it opens for 30 seconds shut down and go through the 30 minutes then 300 minutes.

 

[Kwolford]

So, I was able to get in touch with Cycle Stop. They were very helpful after describing my situation. They said that their product would not do the job for a 3 phase pump to a cistern as theirs is only Single Phase. But, they sent me a link to a 3 phase product: https://www.nassarelectronics.com/en/product/pump-monitor-trifasico/

My question is this, would I put this product in place of the Weg VFD? I realize that I wouldn’t get soft start up benefits for the Berkeley 2hp 3 phase pump that I am running, but the programmable intervals to fill the cistern while I am away with a low producing pump are huge. Would my pump life be dramatically reduced without soft startup voltage? What am I missing…sorry, I am just getting educated on all of this.

 

[Reach4]

Would my pump life be dramatically reduced without soft startup voltage? What am I missing…

Seems unusual to me to have a variable speed system for filling a cistern. It seems weird to me to have a 2 hp pump 165 ft down for feeding a cistern for a home. I would be thinking 10 gpm 1/2 hp. For filling a cistern you don't need to develop much pressure at the surface. At first I was thinking 1/2 hp 5 or 7 gpm, but I looked at some pump curves.

A 5 gpm 1/4 hp multistage centrifugal pump might be better if they actually sold them.

Or maybe instead of a pump set at 165 ft in a 1000 ft well (can that be right?), you should consider a single phase pump set much deeper. You would need a pump selected to match your situation... set the pump at 500 ft, for example.... That pump might be a 5 gpm pump with a 6 or 7 gpm Dole valve to prevent upthrust when the water is high.

You might not even need a cistern with the well bore supplying storage. What diameter is that well?

 

[Valveman]

So, I was able to get in touch with Cycle Stop. They were very helpful after describing my situation. They said that their product would not do the job for a 3 phase pump to a cistern as theirs is only Single Phase. But, they sent me a link to a 3 phase product: https://www.nassarelectronics.com/en/product/pump-monitor-trifasico/

My question is this, would I put this product in place of the Weg VFD? I realize that I wouldn’t get soft start up benefits for the Berkeley 2hp 3 phase pump that I am running, but the programmable intervals to fill the cistern while I am away with a low producing pump are huge. Would my pump life be dramatically reduced without soft startup voltage? What am I missing…sorry, I am just getting educated on all of this.

I am not sure that device will work with a VFD? It says it will work with any motor starter, and a VFD does not have a motor starter. No, you do not need a soft start. That is just a sales gimmick, like the VFD.

Most VFD's have low current protection built in. I don't know about the WEG. But it should have an undercurrent adjustment. If so, you just need to figure out how to program it. But studies show you will spend 3 times as much maintaining a VFD pump system over 15 years, and an even higher percentage as more time goes by. As was said, and inexpensive 1/2HP single phase pump with a Cycle Sensor is the way to go. Just a matter of how much you want to spend maintaining the VFD before you switch.