No.
Yes. Valveman has posted a link in the past IIRC. Ahh, yes: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/well-pump-help.63737/#post-472844
Can you find the gpm rating or number of stages for your existing pump?
Timer for a submersible deep well pump
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Can you find the gpm rating or number of stages for your existing pump?
Kwolford
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5gpm 2hp 6.7-8.1 amp Berkeley
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A 5 gpm 2 hp pump could generate a lot of pressure. It may not be suitable for a CSV.
I understand your pump is probably not a K-series. Those are only made up to 1-1/2 HP it seems. Imagine what a 5-gpm 2-hp curve would look like.
Kwolford
New Member
Since the 3 phase 2hp 5pm Berkeley that I have in there controlled by the VFD is only used to fill the cistern, I’d like to find a way to put it on a timer to fill for 1hr each day until the top float valve on the cistern is tripped. We go through seasonal low well output times like right now and since this is our vacation cabin, I am not there during the week to manually start the VFD. It will only pump about 200-300 gallons in a 12 hr. Period right now. Any suggestions without a full swap out?
That's only 0.35 gpm.
Anyway, the system is controlled by a float valve, right? You could have a timer with a dry contact in series with the float switch.
To produce a dry contact, you could energize a relay with a timer.
Kwolford
New Member
Talked to an electrician that suggested that when the cistern is low and/or seasonal low flow from the well, to use a mechanical hot water heater timer to cycle the VFD power on for a very limited time each day. Most cost effective and easiest to set up for now. when the cistern is full enough for the float valve to cycle the Vfd, I can have bypass the timer and have constant power. Any downsides you see to that method?
Sounds like that should work as long as the controller powers up fine, and I see no reason why it should not.
It would be interesting to see how far down the surface of your water is using a sonic or ultrasonic sounder. I really wonder if it is 380 ft or 100 ft.
- Did flow rate change when you reversed the phase order? Was the first one worse that 0.35 gpm?
- How many amps flow through one of the phase wires when the pump is pumping?
- Is there a readout on the controller that says what frequency of power is being sent to the pump?
Kwolford
New Member
I am going to try to get a pump/well contractor out to measure static levels sometime soon. we live in a booming area where so much new construction is going on, it’s almost impossible to get someone to drive the 45 minutes out to our rural cabin area.
Water well report from 2008 shows:
Talked to Weg technical support about the E05 error that trips the VFD. (Motor overload lxt function) I’m getting and with this model VFD, they did say that is the error I would get with a dry pump that is getting hot due to poor water flow).
Reversing phase order reduced pump flow, so it’s running in the right direction.
Amps digital readout on VFD. on this 6.7-8.1 amp pump, when I first start the pump, I’m getting variable amperage between 7 and 8 amps. What I don’t understand is that as an hour or two passes, the amperage increases to between 8.5 and 9amps. I have the VFD set to 10% over rated amperage to shut down which is when I get e05 error. I would think that amperage would drop as the pump runs dry?
60 Hz frequency set to run the pump. Wondering if I should slow the frequency?
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Since the load on the motor, and the current to the motor, should go down as the water level drops, that does not seem like a motor overload. I don't know what "lxt" might mean -- inductance vs time does not seem likely.
Renting a sounder looks expensive if the rental period includes the shipping period. https://enoscientific.com/rentals/
Maybe a too-busy local well person would rent out a sounder. Wild idea: maybe you could partner with a rental place or two and you rent out a sounder with the rental store(s) taking a commission.
https://enoscientific.com/products/
I have never actually seen a well sounder.
I would not know what to expect from slowing the power frequency.
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Kwolford
New Member
Is it possible that since the amps slowly increase while pumping when the well has been idle for several days and I get a few hundred gallons in the cistern and then an overload situation, that there is back pressure building slowly. When I try to re-engage within a few hours, and the overload happens more quickly, there is still back pressure in the system? Again, it’s pumping to a cistern, but if the pump is deep and 2hp 5gpm, perhaps it’s creating too much pressure for a long run to the surface?
Wow, I just checked the Franklin AIM manual, and those are the exact numbers they list for current when using 230 volt 3-phase 2-hp for full-load and maximum-load respectively. I just thought that was a big coincidence.
You might use a clamp-around ammeter on one phase line at a time and confirm the currents match what the controller thinks. This is not a priority, but it is simple and cheap. I have no reason to mistrust the display.
Anyway full load and maximum load currents are not what you would expect for a pump that is running out of water.
Yet I am mystified about the low 0.35 gpm flow. One thing that seems compatible with these symptoms would be a hole (or big leak) in the drop pipe. So pump pumps a lot of water, but most of it escapes. When using a pump to directly supply a house, there is a pressure tank. Then assuming there is no check valve, except at the pump, the symptom of a hole in the drop pipe would be that the pump cycles when no water is being used in the house.
But you have no pressure tank. And your pipe just exits above the cistern I expect. So what would the symptom be? I am thinking that a deeper leak would empty out the pipe of water as deep as the leak. And there would be a delay in delivering water when the pump starts. But you have a controller that may delay things for all I know, so maybe that would mask this.
A leak could also be on a long path from the well to the cistern, but you would have maybe noticed the effects of water. And maybe it is not a long path. Or maybe the leak has a path that accepts water, and you never notice anything at the surface.
Do you have a pitless adapter and a well cap up top, or more likely a well seal with pipe and wires entering into the visible top of the well seal? A pitless adapter has an o-ring, and failure there would leak water. Could there 5 gpm worth leaking out at low pressure? Seems improbable. So what test could be performed? Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prineville,_Oregon it kinda says you should have a pitless. Pitless normally means well cap, and a well cap can be lifted to observe the area around the pitless spraying water. You may hear water spraying. You may see water spraying. A bright flashlight at night or a mirror directing the sun down the well can let you see.
If you could try pressurize the entrance into the cistern, I would expect an intact path would not accept air. If you can block the entrance of water with your thumb, that would seem to make a leak shunting of the water flow likely. I am not speaking from experience.
I am not saying a big leak is probable. I am saying that it happens at times. It seems to account for your symptoms.
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Kwolford
New Member
Thanks for taking the time to explain all of this. It is pitless adapter. When I get up there this weekend, I will pull the top and use a very bright LED that I can even lower down a couple of feet to see if the o-ring is leaking…that would make my day as perhaps that would be the cheapest fix. Much cheaper than having to have a deep well pump pulled to look for leaks. I have walked the whole area many times between the well and cistern looking for any visible signs of a leak and couldn’t find any water. Our ground is very rocky an6d dense clay, so I would expect that it wouldn’t be absorbed with that much of a leak. Cistern inlet is at the base of a 1500 gallon cement tank buried. Maybe it is leaking at the entry point, but is a good 6ft below ground. Still doesn’t account for the amperage increasing to around 9amps and kicking off the VFD, though. The normal load and high load that I stated is from the pump specs, it’s the 7.5 and up to overload that the pump is exhibiting while doing it’s job.
Yes, a bad-oring would be a best case.
Consider taking a clamp-around ammeter with you. Remember the clamp only goes around one phase wire. Not necessary, but it is a good tool to have in your bag of tricks... ( as is a digital caliper, which is not needed for this job, but I think everybody should have one or a vernier caliper. The vernier caliper takes knowledge instead of batteries.
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Was the "60 hz" from the pump specs also? I had assumed it was an indication by the variable speed controller.
Hmm. There is going to be a check valve at the input to the tank then. Can you see the water surface above the inlet? If there are air bubbles when you first restart the pump, that would support the idea of a leak.
Consider taking a clamp-around ammeter with you. Remember the clamp only goes around one phase wire. Not necessary, but it is a good tool to have in your bag of tricks... ( as is a digital caliper, which is not needed for this job, but I think everybody should have one or a vernier caliper. The vernier caliper takes knowledge instead of batteries.
)Was the "60 hz" from the pump specs also? I had assumed it was an indication by the variable speed controller.
Kwolford
New Member
Yes, a bad-oring would be a best case.
Hmm. There is going to be a check valve at the input to the tank then. Can you see the water surface above the inlet? If there are air bubbles when you first restart the pump, that would support the idea of a leak.
Consider taking a clamp-around ammeter with you. Remember the clamp only goes around one phase wire. Not necessary, but it is a good tool to have in your bag of tricks... ( as is a digital caliper, which is not needed for this job, but I think everybody should have one or a vernier caliper. The vernier caliper takes knowledge instead of batteries.
Was the "60 hz" from the pump specs also? I had assumed it was an indication by the variable speed controller.
60hz is VFD indication and pump spec
This a VFD , and that is that they plan to not always send 60 Hz to the pump. I think they reduce the frequency when they want less flow. Maybe 60 Hz is the upper limit.
Kwolford
New Member
I ordered a 7 day digital timer to connect to the VFD for some longer rest periods between pumping and erring out due to discharge. Can anyone help me with the wiring from VFD to Timer. Photos of timer wiring block and VFD block included.
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With the pump set at 400' and a static water level of 250-300', after sitting for a few hours the pump should produce at least 150 gallons of water before the well is depleted. The VFD does make the amps go lower when the flow is reduced, but the amps go even lower when the pump is running dry. Even with good dv/dt filters a VFD will send 1000 volts to a 230V motor, and the longer the wire the higher the voltage to the motor. The high voltage from a VFD can cook the motor windings, making them swell and grab the rotor, causing high amps. I don't think WEG has as good of filters as the VFD's made by the submersible motor companies, but I'm not sure about that.
Could also be that you are pumping the well dry after a time. If the VFD does not shut the pump off on low amps, the motor will run at low amps and not pumping any water until it gets hot. Then it goes from low amps to high amps very quickly and the overload finally trips the motor off. But using an overload to catch any problem is too little and too late. Got to catch a pump running dry on low amps before it gets hot.
If you set the time for a few minutes too long and the pump runs dry without shutting off, the motor won't last long. I suspect it is damaged already and just barely working as it is.
Could also be that you are pumping the well dry after a time. If the VFD does not shut the pump off on low amps, the motor will run at low amps and not pumping any water until it gets hot. Then it goes from low amps to high amps very quickly and the overload finally trips the motor off. But using an overload to catch any problem is too little and too late. Got to catch a pump running dry on low amps before it gets hot.
If you set the time for a few minutes too long and the pump runs dry without shutting off, the motor won't last long. I suspect it is damaged already and just barely working as it is.
Kwolford
New Member
Timer setting won't change the overload threshold for shutdown. It will still shutdown regardless of what time is left. I have the overload amperage set at 100% of high amp limit of my pump so that it doesn't continue to run much past the 8.1 amp high limit. I know that I'm eventually going to have to replace this system, but in the mean time, keeping the cistern "topped off" by running the pump for a limited amount of time while I am away during weekdays seems like the best option. The timer run in line with the top float valve sensor of the cistern seems like the best way. Just not exactly sure how to wire the timer to the VFD.
Yeah but every time the overload trips the motor has been hot again. Just wire the timer to the inlet single phase power going to the VFD.
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