Sump Pump Problem - I think

[Gellia]

Hello,
Perhaps someone can give me some advice. We just moved into a house that is 5 years old. We were told there were no water problems with the basement and now that we have moved in we find there is nothing BUT problems and the former owners lied to us. There is a sump pit in the basement that is now running every 20 minutes for a length of 10 minutes at a time. We have had one major flood already (this after being told there was never water in the basement only to find that the former owners had had at least TWO major floods). We replaced the pump with a new submersible pump with vertical switch instead of the tethered float that was there, and battery back up, but it just runs constantly and the pit never empties. What do we do? We're not sure the problem is runoff or ground water. How do we find out? The water POURS into the sump pit on a constant basis and we aren't even sure what to do about it. If the electric went off we're not even sure the back up would be able to handle it. If it is runoff, would an intercept drain help? What do we do if it's ground water? Is there a way to divert it? We were told there were french drains around the house but in digging down three feet next to the foundation (we have a 12 foot deep basement and now are questioning that being approved by the town at all) all we found was dirt and plastic bags. We just don't know where to turn next. Can anyone make some suggestions on how to stem or divert the flow of water rushing into the sump? Our basement is unusable to us like this.
ANY information would be appreciated. We're desperate and fearing the loss of everything we have.
Thank you.

 

[Cass]

If you just moved in you can contact a lawyer and see if there is anything you can do legaly.

If the basement floor is higher than the lowest point on your land by a few feet, you may be able to drain it out that way but my guess is No.

If the water is entering as fast as you say a battery back up will not keep up with that flow unless you have a DC pump with battery back up.

If you stay in the home I would get 2 DC pumps with battery back up.

DC pumps are the same as the one you have, flow wize, only you have a AC/DC converter that powers the pump. If the power fails the batterys keep the pump running at the same rate. I would have 2 so if 1 pump fails you have a back up.

The down side is they are more $$$

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gellia]

Thank you.

We have spoken to an attny, and I'm afraid we will have to pursue that, but we love our house and would like to try and fix the problem, if possible. We had some topography levels done and found that our basement floor is 7 1/2' above a stream about a mile down the road. There is a parking lot nearby and we are 1 1/2' above that. It has never flooded. We are also about 4' above the water level of a drainage inlet nearby. Our property slopes from about 41ft. in the back down to approximately 25 feet across the street which gets marshy.
Would intercept drains help? If we need an engineer, what kind do we get?
Everything the sellers originally told us is now suspect so we're not even sure about whether there are french drains around the house. Our best scenario would be to divert the water from ever reaching the sump and be able to get rid of it completely but we wondered why they wouldn't have done that themselves (we do have a few theroies, though). I also understand that the builder was going to build more houses behind us but couldn't get a variance based on another problem. If he had built, would that have helped keep the water from reaching us? As you can see, I'm probably grasping at straws, but we love the house and really can't afford to move again. This was to be "it" and until we discovered this "problem" we thought it was.

 

[Cass]

You could be sitting on a spring or have an under ground stream flowing under the house.

 

[Gellia]

Hi again,

We did consider that, but the stream nearby flows in the opposite direction on to the nearby river. It appears that any runoff from the 41 foot elevation behind us runs right through our house. Sellers didn't even tell us there was a sump until after our offer was accepted. We knew nothing about them and believed when they told us the basement was dry because of french drains all around. They also intimated that the reason the pump went off so much after we moved in was because we needed a new pump that had a vertical on it instead of a tethered float. It was after our flood and having the new pump put in that we found the problem. The cover of the sump had been cemented down and was very difficult to remove. I appreciate your replies. Can you tell me if there is any solution to either runoff or groundwater?

 

[Bob NH]

We are also about 4' above the water level of a drainage inlet nearby.

The fact that your house is on a slope with high ground to the back suggests both a cause and a solution.

There is probably an aquifer that comes near the surface under your house that provides what might as well be an unlimited supply of water. When an aquifer come to the surface, that is called a "spring". That spring is the cause of your problem.

You are 4 feet above a drainage inlet which probably discharges to the marshy area. Therein lies your solution. You must provide a drain for that spring that doesn't involve water in your basement.

For purposes of drainage, the elevations that matter are the elevations relative to your basement floor. If that 4 ft is from your living level and is above the basement it may not help.

If it is a surface inlet like a catch basin in the street, there is probably a pipe at a lower elevation. You want to try to get into the side of that catch basin

The solution is to drain the water source or completely divert it away from the house. Don't let anyone talk you into trying to seal anything or stop the flow. It won't work.

You probably need a civil engineer who has geo-technical experience, but be careful that you don't spend more on engineering studies than it will take to fix the problem. They will want borings and test wells and test pits and it will cost more than just going in and draining it. I am a civil engineer and I know how the business works.

You need an engineer to figure out where the water is going to go and where the pipe will run. You need help getting permits to dump the water and perhaps for a permit to put the water into the nearby drainage system. And you need the engineer on site when the back hoe is there and they are installing the pipe. He may see something he didn't expect and will have to order a change in plan.

A big cost risk will be if you have rock to deal with, or if you are getting water directly up from a spring in the middle of your basement. It will also be a problem if you can't get permission to dump the water to some down hill location. You will want to pipe the water to the outlet if you are in an area that freezes. You don't want a big patch of ice.

It may be that the least expensive solution would be a big enough duplex sump pump system with a with a standby generator. A duplex pump system has two pumps that alternate operation to keep them working and provide backup if one fails. The Generac brand generators with automatic start cost about $2500.

You will still need a place to dump the water but it seems like you already have that.

Come back if you have more questions, or send me a Private Message. I check for them every day.

 

[Gellia]

Again, my thanks

for the thoughtful reply. I guess we'll look into getting a civil engineer to look at the problem. Do you suggest we go and get borings done? I'm prepared to install drains on the up side of the slope along two sides of the house, if necessary. If there is a spring UNDER the basement, how would we know?
We certainly can't go to a great expense but I really want to solve the problem.
The sump pump going off every 20 mintues drives me crazy and just points out how stupid we feel. We never dreamed that the seller would lie about this when we asked specifically about it. Now, we just want to solve the problem and save our house. Is it a civil engineer we need?

 

[Bob NH]

Being a Scot and a civil engineer, I would start with talking to a contractor about the problem to get an estimate. The contractor will probably give you an estimate at no cost. He may recommend an engineer if he thinks one is needed.

Ask the contractor where he will put the water that is lower than the basement. He will probably have a hand level that he can use to tell you whether it is possible to drain it.

I hear ads all the time from places that will give you an estimate and guarantee to fix your problem. If you get an estimate, you will know how much it will cost to make the sound of the sump pump go away.

I like to do comparisons of different solutions. What will it cost to put a really good sump pump system in the basement with a backup generator? I suspect that it would be somewhere around $6000 including the generator, a nice big covered sump in the basement, and a duplex sump pump system. It would be less if you can do some of the installation yourself, and maybe $10,000 if you add bells and whistles such as hooking the generator to your house wiring with a transfer switch.

You might conclude that the best way to make the sound of the pump go away is soundproofing.

I suggest another of my rules to apply whenever talking to anyone about solving the problem:
NEVER sign a contract until at least 48 hours after you have talked to them, and the 48 hour clock starts again every time THEY call you. When you are ready to sign a contract, YOU call them.

I would sit down with your elevation survey and figure out if there is a nearby location that would drain your basement without a pump. Ask yourself, "Where could the pipe outlet go that would be a couple of feet below the basement floor?" If there is no such place, then your choices are:
1. Pump
2. Substantial piping to where you could dump a drain.

Surface drainage corrections are not going to help if it is ground water. Diversion or blocking will not help if it is ground water.

So, talk to people and get some idea of the scope and cost of the fix. Figure out what is in your best interests.

Take it slow while your lawyer works on the problem. It will still be there next month.

To give us some idea what the weather and terrain might be like, where are you located?

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

basement trobles

you are probably on a spring, and will most likely

have to find a way to live in peace with it.......


its probably the best cleanest drinking water you could possibly
ever ask for, but just not in your basement...

one thing you might consider is
you should look into possibly makeing your sump pit LARGER...

and installing a Zoeller AQUANOT battery operated back up
sump pump ....they are the best made and will save your day....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had a builder build a house about 18 inches deeper than the plans
called for and actually got into the drainage run off for a large
resivour near by.....and the house ended up having literally a stream
moving underneath the place....



Eventually they had to install a couple of large 100 gal pits because it was burning out the pumps too quickly in a smaller 30 gal pit, constantly comming on and off...

(we did not get the job of digging these out -- thank god)

with a LARGER pit it takes a lot longer for the pit to fill up and isnt as noticable...and saves the wear and tear on the pumps too...


theese people also ended up putting in a back up gas generator in which was very expensive ---- 5k to solve thier problems



what ever you do ---good luck

http://www.zoeller.com/zcopump/products/backupsystems/aquanot.htm

 

[Gellia]

Thank you both.

I appreciate the information.
Mark, your scenario could be us. We just had a reservoir put in nearby. I believe it flows to the nearby river, though.
Our basement appears to have been placed too deeply, I guess. It's 12ft. deep. I was curious as to how they would enlarge a sump pit. We have water filling ours every 20 minutes and the pump never empties it. It is a 30 gallon, I think. It looks like a regular trash can with two 4" drain pipes entering it approximately 6" from the top lip. The primary pump and the battery back up pump seem to take up quite a bit of the pit and we had to put the primary on blocks because the switch would have never turned off. The primary is a vertical switch and it would have remained underwater all the time. Our house sits on a corner. We have a drainage outlet in the street to one side that is about 18" above our basement floor and the water level inside the drain is about 4' below the basement floor. The lowest part of the entire area is about 200 feet from our house toward the corner. It sits at 25 - 26 ft and they just built a house with a crawl space. We are at 31ft. Does any of this help? The soil is sandy and drains well. The water we do pump out is absorbed and disappears with 5 -10 minutes. Our experience with this is nil and having been told there was no problem with any water we are trying to get a crash course on what to do next. I really appreciate all the information. Knowledge is power and we feel quite powerless right now. I just wish we had known this before. Having it concealed from us has only added to the difficulty.

 

[Pumpman]

I'm certainly not an engineer on this type of thing, but I'm curious as to who sized the pump that is currently in the sump tank? If the pump is too small, it won't ever empty the sump.
Just wondering....
Ron

 

[Gellia]

We have no

idea. We are going to try and get the plans from the town. What we were "told" is that the house sits on a 6' french drain with 3' to the sides. The pump was concealed when we first looked at the house and although we asked about water in the basement on more than several occassions we were assured there had never been a problem with all those drains underneath and that the sump had only gone off twice in the 5 years the owners lived here. With the cover cemented on we had no idea what was even in there. The owner kept telling us that as soon as we changed to a vertical switch it would be fine and go back to being "quiet" again. Sure. We had the new pump installed along with a back up after having a major flood. There was about 3-4 inches of water over the entire full basement floor in what was probably a 2day period before we discovered it, including all the things we had just moved into the house and hadn't had time to move out of the basement. Most was soaked and had to be thrown away. Our loss was extensive. I continued to make excuses for the owners never dreaming that they had lied to our face (she was also the realtor). We found this out on meeting the neighbors that confirmed that the sellers had had a problem since they moved in and had had at least two major floods that they were aware. We were devestated but taking that aside, wanted to correct the problem so that we could go ahead and use the basement as the very nicely finished room it started out to be.
We have been hoping the problem was runoff but the stream of water into the pit is steady and unrelenting and we've been here for 3 months.
That's why I have appreciated all the information I have received here. It gives us some idea of where to go next. If we have to learn to live with this thing, having it go off twice every hour isn't a good option.
And, is there no way to divert an underground stream? Our only option would be a different pump system? Any recommendations? I believe what we have now is a 1/3hp Zoeller with a Zoeller battery backup.
Again...many thanks.

 

[Bob NH]

I continued to make excuses for the owners never dreaming that they had lied to our face (she was also the realtor).

I believe that if it can be proved that the realtor lied to you, the realtor can lose her license and you will have a basis for recovery. As a sellers representative she may not have had a duty to tell you if you didn't ask, but she has a duty not to lie to you.

The only way to divert an underground stream is to intercept it, collect all the water, and give it an easy way to get away from the area that you want to protect. That involves making some kind of collector and a place to discharge the water. That is also what the sump pump does.

Enlarging the sump pit involves opening up the floor and digging a bigger hole. If you have only dirt (not rock) it is pretty easy. Are you a Do-it-yourself person?

There is an advantage to making it deeper because you can lower the water table more. Here is my design, which you can modify.

Cut a hole in the floor about 4 ft diameter around the current sump pump location. Now, while keeping the hole pumped out, dig out the hole to about 4 ft diameter, straight down to 3.5 ft. Dump in about 6" of stone to make a base. One of the two-handed post hole diggers works quite well when you can't easily get down in the hole. You might also want one of those steel spuds (HD again) to loosen up hard dirt.

Next, lay up a circular wall about 30" inside diameter using the curved or wedge shaped blocks that you can usually find at HD but maybe at a masonry place. Lay the blocks tightly together and don't worry if the diameter isn't exactly 30". You want the blocks tight at the inside surface and if the cracks are wide at the outside, fill those cracks with a bit of mortar. You don't want to seal it, and you won't, but you want to make a complete circle so it will be strong.

Make sure it is large enough for two pumps.

Don't use mortar except as noted above at the joints. You are relying on the blocks against each other to keep the wall from collapsing inward. As the height of the wall increases, fill the space behind it with stone.

Now you have a sump with a capacity of 110 gallons plus the spaces between the rock and the blocks. Fix the concrete and make a cover that you can remove.

 

[Gellia]

Oh, we asked.

We asked many times. The basement was what attracted us to the house in the first place. They told us the only water that had ever been in the basement had been from a rear window and a "little regrading took care of that". Otherwise, we'd never have any water in THAT basement. Wow, were we surprised to go down one morning and find 4" across the entire basement floor. Everything down there got ruined and we had stored almost everything down there we had. We were only in the house 5 weeks at the time. It's been downhill since.
All your suggestions and advice is really appreciated. I'm not the do-it yourselfer but I sure want to make sure whomever does this job does it right so a special thanks to Bob for that information.
If anyone can think of anything, well, I'm ready to learn. It's the old "fool me once shame on you...fool me twice, well I'm the fool!"....and I don't want to be.
Thanks again.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

you can probably sue the realtor--owner

I think you got a case there......

not discloseing someting on a disclosure form is

the absolute best way to get yourself sued and in hot water

with your realtors lisc....


The owner-Realtor certanly cannot plead ignorance here....
--------------------------------------------------------------------

BOB NH has a pretty good idea about how to make that hole bigger....

but its gonna take some --big strong dummies-- to do that job.....


that is certanly not for the average homeowner to tackle...

going down 4 feet ---that is hard, hard work........


I myself have almost been in tears before on a job where I was just
installling a normal sewage ejector pit.........
with water up to my waist and riseing ....that is not fun at all..


I suggest that get some estimates from some concrete people or plumbers in your area..... and make it a big big pit while you are at it if you plan on staying there for the long ahul.


It might be wiser to leave that to the pros,

and then do that job with
the money your are gonna get from your lwasuit.....

 

[Gellia]

Thanks, guys!

You all have made me feel so much better. Thank you. I feel like we will be able to at least do something. I just want to be able to use my basement and be happy in my new home. We do love it. It's just the "boogy man" in the basement!!
I think we'll have our attny get a civil engineer out here first and see if it is a spring or just some ungodly runoff from somewhere. We're still shell shocked at the lies told to our faces so I don't know what to believe. I also plan on going to the town and getting the plans to the house to see if it was improperly built or inspected.
I was glad to hear there could be a solution even if it was a spring. I would leave the digging of a new sump to the pros. How do they do that when water is flooding in???
All your help has been really appreciated. This is a great web site. I'm so glad I found it.
I'm sure I'll be back as things progress because, as I said, I don't want to get caught again.
Thanks.

 

[Bob NH]

"How do they do that when water is flooding in???"
They put a pump, or a suction pipe attached to a pump, in the hole and keep it pumped out. You would be surprised what can be done under water, including welding and pouring concrete.

 

[Gellia]

Cool!

Guess I'll be getting an education in not only basement drainage and sump pumps, but real estate law.
Didn't think I'd have to be doing this now. Life's a ball! LOL
Thanks again, everyone. I'll be back as things go along because I 'd like to know it's being done right this time and I certainly appreciate your information. This is a great site and the way the internet should be. I appreciate all the help. You guys are great!

 

[VictorMinetola]

I stumbled upon this while looking for solutions to my situation and felt like Gellik's story was my own, only 10 years later.

After a "small" flood 3 days after we moved in, we replaced 2/3 of the interior drain tile (which we eventually got the seller/flipper/realtor to agree to pay for, so long as we didn't go back to him about any other water issues). After finishing restoration to the basement and enjoying it for about 2 weeks, we came home from being out of town for Christmas to find the entire basement had flooded. The previous owner had installed the cheapest Generac standby generator he could find, but we found out (too late) that it was not installed properly and did not start when our house lost power the Monday after Christmas.

Several friends recommended a French Drain (we are the lowest house in the area, and the last house before our drainage pond just around the corner). Two companies I spoke with recommended a particular excavation company. They proposed two things: A bigger pit in the basement, and two exterior pits with pumps in the yard.

We started with the exterior pits with the hope that water would follow the path of least resistance and fill those pits. One of the pits on the side of the house has hardly taken on any water at all. The one in the back of the house (about 4 feet away and in the same corner as the pump inside) did take on water, but didn't seem to be alleviating anything inside. I eventually calculated that the exterior pit was collecting and pumping 19.5 gallons of water every 3 hours, while the pit inside was collecting and pumping 8.5 gallons every 20 seconds (on a good day—sometimes as fast as 8 seconds).

The excavation company came back out to tackle the inside pit. The plan was to put in a 30" x 36" pit to replace the existing pit. Once they got the old pit and the gravel out, they attempted to pump and dig to create a space for the new pit. You could see water coming in not just from the drain tile, but pouring in under the footer (oh, and we installed 9 low profile piers when we did the drain tile because the footer was cracked in multiple locations). As fast as they would dig, water and silt would come in and fill up what they had just dug out. You could also see areas that bubbled up, causing us to believe it is a spring. They temporarily put the old pit back and came back the next day to dig again in the backyard to see if they would also hit the water.

As they dug down (and had a few moments of getting close and then the sides of the dirt collapsing), they eventually go down close to the footer and saw water. They managed to move the external pit to that area, a foot or so away from the house. They are hoping to get a pipe running from under the footer into the external pit and allow gravity to offload some of the water under the house into the exterior pit.

We had a little over and inch of rain Sunday to Monday. The extra ground water caused the temporary placement of the pit to get lifted up. They came out today to attempt to put in a 24" x 24" pit instead (and hopefully the 30" x 36" next to it), but gave up for the day. They currently have that pit in place, but it's about 6" higher than it needs to be. The water coming in keeps floating the pit, which they were temporarily able to weigh down with bags of gravel for the night.

Any tricks, pointers, ideas? Can we divert the spring away from foundation so it fills up elsewhere than under the house?

Thanks in advance for any help.