Shower drain ?'s

[ck1995]

Hello,

I am brand new here, learned of this site through John Bridge's Tile Forum.

I have ripped out my old shower which had a fiberglass pan and planning on putting in a new mud floor with Kerdi drain. I have a concrete slab with PVC drain under slab.

Let me say, other than knowing how to glue PVC together I know "NOTHING"
about plumbing. The reason I am here looking for help is I want to get my Kerdi drain lower, as it is, would be approx. 3" above slab. While possible, it will create very thick mud floor and will raise shower higher than I want it.

I have already cut down drain pipe as far as I could. There is only a little left before it is attached to a larger pipe and starts turning. I am attaching pictures to try and help my explanation.

My question is, can I fairly easily rework this drain or is it going to be a major debacle?

One final note, it is approx. 12" from top of pipe to where the drain appears to make a complete turn and there is a little standing water at this part.

Any help will be greatly appreciated,

 

[Jadnashua]

The standing water is where the p-trap is. You should be able to rework things so that you can get the drain as low as you want, but you may have to tear up some floor. You could cut the pvc off just above the trap with an internal cutter, bore out the fitting in the p-trap, then glue in a new piece of 2" pvc riser to the right height to attach your drain to. It appears that there are a bunch of fittings there, maybe from previous modifications.

There are probably many other (maybe easier) ways to do this...one of the pros would have some insight.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[bctile601]

Schluter will want a 1" mortar bed under the flange of the drain, so the maximum you could gain is 2", which is considerable with shower floor build up. I had a rough situation once where a builder glued the drain too tight to the subfloor ahead of me, I was able to get a variance from my rep but on that job only I think. You may be able to get it closer, but I would ask somone from Schluter first.

 

[hj]

drain

None of the pictures actually show what we would need to know which is how deep the hub of the trap is, and how long is the drain. The lowest you can cut the pipe and still use it is about 1" above the hub. Once that is done, the length of the drain will determine how high it will be. I have never heard of, or used, a drain that needs 1" below it, therefore we set all our drains right on the subfloor or concrete slab.

 

[bctile601]

That's right, a standard 2 pc drain would normally, and correctly be placed directly on the plywood subfloor, or in this case, on the slab. This drain is different and is not clearly worded in the technical data for this application. It states ...

1b. When job conditions require the setting of the KERDI-DRAIN by the plumber prior to the installation of the mortar bed (or when there is no access to the plumbing from below), connect the drain to the waste line at the desired height. Pack loose mortar under the bonding flange and drain casing, so that the unit is fully supported, before placing the screed. When installing KERDI-DRAIN over wood substrates, the minimum thickness of mortar required at the perimeter of the bonding flange is 1".

So, I would give their tech line a call before installing this drain. 1 800 472 4588

 

[ck1995]

Thanks for the comments guys unfortunately, now I am more confused than before. I have attached a link which shows all the Kerdi drain dimensions, http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=28637
I guess I can call Schluter and see what they say but I think my bigger concerns are with the exisiting plumbing.

If I leave drain where it currently is, I will have a 3" mortar bed way exceeding the 1", if I am able to dig down I would still easily have an inch. That 2" in shower floor height will make a big difference in overall presentation.

As far as the exisiting plumbing, that is what I have no clue about. What is the Hub? All I know for sure is it is just over 12" from slab to where you hit bottom in the trap if you put something down the drain. It appears to have another piece glued on top going towards slab and then finally a 3rd piece which I think was screwed on to that which is what currently protrudes from the slab. I just don't know what, if any alterations I can make to this set up before I have major plumbing adjustments being needed. Does there need to be a certain amount of straight pipe before trap? etc,etc,

Should I just give up and call in a plumber?

 

[Jadnashua]

You have plenty of height above the trap to get your drain just where you want it. But, to do that, you've got to get rid of a bunch of those fittings. You might be able to unscrew the threaded connection and maybe use an internal cutter on the plastic parts, but you'd probably need a coupling and a short stub of plastic to be able to attach the drain. SO, you'll need to break out some of the concrete so you've got some working room. A hammer drill and some holes would probably make quick work of the concrete destruction.

 

[ck1995]

Jim,

Thanks again for the input. I'll try that. BTW, I don't know what the deal with all those fittings you see is. I am the original home owner so they must have done it during initial construction.

 

[ck1995]

O.K. I did it, chiseled away the slab dug down and cut the drain pipe.

Unfortunately, I dropped some debris down the drain during the process. Before anyone asks, Yes I had a rag in drain but pulled it out to cut and when I did some debris dropped in.

I was able to dig, I think most debirs out with a screw driver....Couple concreate chunks. However, I think I pulled out more than I dropped in. Is it possible some of it has been in there since the house was built, 11 years ago?

My main concern is ensuring I don't have a clog before I continue on. I poured some water with a pitcher and had to pour slowly or it would flow up out of the pipe. Now I did cut a about 6" of riser pipe out so I don't know if that is normal or if I have an issue??????? Is there a way to check for normal operation? I am attaching a current picture for comparison to the original post in case it helps illustrate what I'm saying.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,

 

[Geniescience]

slab-level drain countersunk 1/4"

hi chuck

i'm new to this thread, so bear with me if I haven't understood everything up till now.

the first post from bctile right near the top says that Schluter wants a minimum of 1" of mortar.... I would like to get to the bottom of this, as it seems to me that an 8" concrete slab is structural overkill and you don't need to then add another 1" of mortar on top of a slab. What have I missed here? I think I'm going to have to start calling Schluter a lot these days, as this and other unanswered questions have been festering for years in various forums that promote Schluter.

I put my Schluter Kerdi drain down flush with the slab. I countersunk it. This made dust, yes, but that was the only drawback.

I always read on internet forums that "you need" a mortar bed. I think that only applies to a wood building, a wood subfloor, a wood structure, a joist-built thing. Not a concrete slab.

Summary: you did the right thing. You are persistent.

It looks like you are going to place the drain down low and then build a slight slope on top of the slab from there. I did that. I used a resurfacing mortar, and went from zero thickness to 1" thick.

About the chunks of garbage in the drain: remove the water and be ready to insert very sticky gluey probes down to grab the chunks. You can even insert a tube and vacuum it all out through the top of the tube.

David

 

[ck1995]

David,

Thanks for the quick response. I pretty much figured a vacuum was the way to go, guess I just wanted to hear it.

As far as the 1" mortar, either in the Kerdi book I got or on the John Bridge forum I saw somewhere that it isn't required when you are going over concreate slab.

Your right on with your assumption on my drain, putting it down low and will use just enough mortar on top for my preslope. Here is the link to my project on the other forum in case you are interested. http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=45858&highlight=newbie+water

 

[Jadnashua]

Deck mud needs some thickness in order for it to reliably hold together - 1" is probably near the minimum you'd want, regardless of what it is sitting on.

 

[Geniescience]

no to deck mud

don't use deck mud on a slab.

On internet discussion forums, I rarely see anyone referring to any other kind of cement product under shower floors. Funny thing is, when you go to the lumber yard and see all the various cement mixes there are, you realize you have lots of options. Even on the jbf forum, they always talked about deck mud, even after I kept on mentioning that it was UNsuitable for a slab. Finally I got a couple of weak responses.

As mentioned above, on a slab I have used a resurfacing mix, designed and guaranteed to work on a slab when the thicknesses required are from Zero to One Inch (or more, I can't remember off hand).

Hope this helps.

david

 

[ck1995]

David,

Why no deck mud on slab. I thought it was O.K. as long as you put down thinset first to help bond it to the slab.

Please explain

 

[Geniescience]

you can if you want

Not forbidden. Nicht verboten. There is no rule why not thou shalt not. It can be done, and millions do do it.

One highly experienced person, who sells Schluter membranes and drains from his web site, told me that doing it, is "just being lazy". Meaning, "that one does what one has always done, and that one uses a mix that one already knows how to spread out and shape into a slope." Deck mud has a long open time too, since it is mostly sand.

My point is this:
When you don't want to add the extra floor height, you can start you slope at the slab and build up 1/4" per foot from there. To do that, the right cement product is not a sand mix (deck mud), since it has too much sand in it and will crack up if it is only 1/4" or 1/2" thick.

Chuck, I mentioned starting at zero height since I saw you could very easily countersink the Kerdi drain into the slab and get started at a level below zero! Below the level of the floor. This, for some people, is a big design feature that they would pay big bucks to have. When you have to step up into the shower, the threshold (sill) is that much higher too.

If you sink the drain a full 1/2" down, and then slope up from there, you could even have a roll-in ADA shower that has only a gentle rounded ridge speed bump transition in the floor instead of a shower sill (a 2" threshold). Another highly prized design feature that many builders can't or won't do. Too much attention to detail, too many steps that might need time, but exactly what a DIY can afford to work at.

David

 

[ck1995]

David,

Appreciate your opinions and information. That being said, the resurfacing mix you spoke of sounds like what I am looking for. My plan, at this point, is to either put drain at ground zero or below. Is the resurfacing mix harder to work with/mix etc. can I find it at the big orange box or will I need to find it elsewhere?

 

[Geniescience]

i have no aversion to asking questions and learning as i go, either.

Chuck, it looks like you are going to have to go off-line tomorrow and visit a retail competitor or two. Prefer the ones that will have old-timers as employees, or at least the ones that have been in business the longest.

Where I live, it is more than just a couple thousand miles away, so retail competition is different here from where you are in Tamps. Where I live, Heim Despot is the big new chain that shakes the market up; it is not the place to get any information of any kind. (I can recount what would sound like tall tales, but they are all based on real life experience, all to give a hundred illustrations of what I mean.) However, I would go there to get the 1-800 phone number off the bags of cement mixes.



When you get that number, call the cement maker. They will have someone who is actually almost responsible for the "advice" they give out.

So, Chuck, don't try to guess which mix has the right name for you. Where I live, it might be called ...xyz.... mix. It might go by another name too. Grout mix, patching mix, resurfacing, whatever: the name is not standardized. If I am wrong, I'll be glad to learn more, when you or anyone else tell me how naming is done in the cement product market.

I'll bet you that there will be one product that has a short open time, and another one that needs more than 12 hours to set. Use the second one, if you want to move carefully, and let it set overnight.

David

 

[ck1995]

David, thanks again for the floor cement advice.

Before I get to the floor, I need to finish drain. Does anyway have any opinions on flexible PVC. It basically looks like rubber to me. Anyway, it seems it would be easier to work with, particularly since my drain riser is a little off of center to where the drain will be. So, I was thinking about using a small piece of flexible to connect it all together but, I am worried about the long term durability in the floor drain.

 

[ck1995]

just bumping post

 

[ck1995]

Still looking for opinion on using flexible PVC in shower drain. Is it safe or should I stay away from it?