Recommended settings for Upflow Fleck 5800SXT, 45000 grains

[Mike89]

Hello,

I finally installed my Fleck 5800SXT 45K yesterday, but some settings still elude me.

What I have:

5800SXT, Pentair valve 580006-002, turbine meter upflow
Injector 2, draw 0.5GPM per table (seems bigger than most, can this be correct?)
Drain flow 2.4 GPM
Capacity 45000 grain, 2 people in the house, water softener only on hot water, total water use per month is 12.5m3 or 3300 gallons (cold and hot, mostly hot water)

My settings:
DF = GAL
VT = 5800
RfF= UFbd (is this best, or is fill first best?)
CT = Fd
C = 45 x1000
H = 8 (95mg/L, converts to 7, added one for the ery slight iron content)
Rs = rc
RC = 150
DO = Off (can I get away with this? I really only want to regenerate when needed)
BD = 60
BW = 10
RR = 8
BF = 12 (I calculated I needed 4.5 gallons, so 9 minutes at 0.5GPM. Is 12 excessive or "safer"?)
FM = t0.7
Re = off
VR = off

 

[Reach4]

Fleck 5800SXT 45K

What are the dimensions of your tank? 10x54, or what? 10x54 is my best guess. Alternatively, what volume of resin was installed?

Also, check the injector color. A #2 blue injector would be unsuitable IMO. A #00 Injector - Violet would be my choice I think, but a #0 Injector - Red may or may not be OK. Not blue!

While checking, you might check for the molded number on the BLFC, or test the flow by feeding into a bucket with known capacity and timing the flow. Or weigh the increase in weight.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Mike89]

Correct, 10x54 tank, 1.5ft3 of resin. 45k capacity.

Do I need to take the brine draw line out to see the injector color? Try as i may I did not see BLFC number molded anywhere. I will take a picture of the sticker (clearly says Injector 2, but it is hand written...)

 

[Reach4]

Do I need to take the brine draw line out to see the injector color?

Injector is under the cap that is under the brine line connection. Make sure to relieve pressure before trying to lift the cap. To relieve pressure, either make your water pressure go to zero while the softener is not in bypass, or put the softener in bypass and start a regen or something that lets water out. If you start a regen, the softener will think it has regenerated, so the non-bypass method avoids confusing the softener.

There are two holes under that cap. For UF, the injector is the lower one, and the upper one has the 61959 plug, which I think is black.

The injector color can be seen without pulling the injector. The 7000 uses the same injector. This youtube shows the 7000 which has its cap on top, but the video may be helpful anyway. Video show blue, which is like a baby blue.
Fleck 7000 Injector Repairs - YouTube

 

[Mike89]

Thanks much clearer now. I will try and avoid pulling the cap if at all possible, to avoid any kind of leak. I may pull the brine line from the tower and just measure flow (I will get rid of the stainless screen at the same time, as people seem to think it is more trouble than its worth).

Sticker is quite damning, pointing to a #2 injector. What would be bad about having that size injector?

Update: It seems a DLFC of 2.4gpm corresponds to a violet 00 injector, that has a more sensible BLFC of 0.125GPM. So the 2 may be wrong on the sticker (a blue #2 injector would have a DLFC of 5 GPM).

 

[Reach4]

Thanks much clearer now. I will try and avoid pulling the cap if at all possible, to avoid any kind of leak. I may pull the brine line from the tower and just measure flow (I will get rid of the stainless screen at the same time, as people seem to think it is more trouble than its worth).

Sticker is quite damning, pointing to a #2 injector. What would be bad about having that size injector?

Update: It seems a DLFC of 2.4gpm corresponds to a violet 00 injector, that has a more sensible BLFC of 0.125GPM. So the 2 may be wrong on the sticker (a blue #2 injector would have a DLFC of 5 GPM).

If you do upflow brining, it is important there not be lift of the resin during BD. I don't know how much flow could cause that, but slower won't hurt. See https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/fleck-5800-dlfc-blfc-injector-sizing-for.86518/ #13.

I don't know that there is a disallowed relationship between the DLFC and the injector size for the 5810. The 7000 has a problem along those lines, as described in Fleck bulletin #599 dated May 2008.

When you pull a seal, as with the one on the cap, you will ideally lightly lubricate the seal/o-ring with food grade (NSF-61) silicone grease. For non-sliding seals like that one, you can use a very light coat of release compound #7 or thicker like Molykote 111. For sliding seals like the piston you don't use the thicker stuff. That said, I did pull and replace my injector cap without re-lubing the seal.

I think there is enough doubt that you should check stuff, either by visual inspection, or measuring. There are graphs in the service manual that tell how many gpm the different injectors will send to the drain. There are two lines on the graphs -- one before the brine is all sucked out and one after the brine has been sucked out. So by measuring the drain line gpm during BD, you can deduce the injector. Similarly you can infer the BLFC by measuring the gpm of the water sent out the brine line during BF.

 

[Mike89]

Yes, I do believe I will have to confirm with a flow measurement. Somehow the water level in my brine tank is now close to 3/4 full (below overflow) after I added the salt (I now have (5) 40lb bags in there). I definitely do not want to fill it anymore.

For the record the specs for my Pentair valve model (580006-002) also state a 0.125GPM BLFC(00 violet injector), so I am hopeful someone just wrote it wrong on the sticker.

PS Worst fears confirmed, I pulled the side cap, the injector is baby blue .

So the sticker is correct, it is a #2 injector, BLFC 0.5GPM.

 

[Reach4]

PS Worst fears confirmed, I pulled the side cap, the injector is baby blue .

So the sticker is correct, it is a #2 injector, BLFC 0.5GPM.

Check that the black plug was above and the baby blue injector was on the bottom under that cap.

I would also check to see if you have the upflow piston you think you have, with the blue dot, or you have a white dot downflow piston.

 

[Mike89]

I had a small plug on top, white basket in the middle, injector was on the bottom.

I'm pretty sure I have an upflow. I had it configured as downflow for a short while and it kept flowing to the drain non stop...

 

[Reach4]

Also watch to see if the unit senses flow, in case they omitted the turbine. :-(
Here is what I see once you get the #00 injector:

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 7 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 1.5 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 8.0 ; including iron etc
H comp factor ; 1.05
Hardness compensation
Estimated gal/day ; 120.0 ; 60 gal per person prediction (auto-tunes)
Est days/regen
34.4 ; presuming days each use estimated

Fleck 5810SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5810 ; Valve type
RF = UFbd ; Upflow
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 33.1 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 8 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
RS = cr ; Cr = base reserve on recent experience
DO = 21 ; Day Override (typ 30 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 5 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 90 ; Brine draw minutes (90 with #00 injector, which you should get)
B2 = 4 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]
RR = 6 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 7 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2 (usual) ; t1.2 is default flow meter[/]
RE = OFF ; Relay
VR = OFF ; ?

 

[Mike89]

Thanks Reach4, you have been very helpful.

I can check I am registering flow in the diagnostic data(Peak flow Rate and VU Volume used should not be 0...)

A few questions:

I have the 5800SXT, not the 5810. FM = t0.7 is standard (at least according to youtube), 3/4" turbine meter even if my connections are 1"

You set capacity at 33.1k, even though I have a 45k softener. I am guessing this is because we are using the more efficient 7lbs/cuft resin, vs 15lbs for max capacity?

My BLFC is currently 0.5 GPM with #2 injector, but with 00 injector it will be 0.125GPM.
I was thinking BF = 7 and BD = 24 with the #2 injector currently installed
Once I get the #00 injector, BF = 36 and BD = 90 (optimal brine draw time is still a mystery to me btw, not sure how it is calculated).

the 5800SXT does not give me a dual backwash option for upflow (only on downflow). I will just do 10 minutes, single backwash.

 

[Bannerman]

Downflow is most common and recommended for a residential softener. An up-flow configuration in a 5800 valve requires an alternate piston and the placement of the injector is also configured differently. Although you have confirmed your injector is in the correct position for Upflow, the size of the current injector is the item that leads to doubt the system is properly configured for up-flow brining.

The injector and BLFC flow restrictor are two separate components. The injector number will determine the slow rinse flow rate through the media during the Brine Draw and Slow Rinse cycles. Slow Rinse flow through the injector will cause suction on the brine line which will draw the brine from the brine tank. A higher flowing injector will cause rinse to occur more quickly and brine to be drawn faster.

Backwash will loosen, lift and reclassify the resin. During brining, it is undesirable to disturb the loosened resin, but instead allow the brine to slowly flow between the resin granules to permit sufficient contact time soaking in the slow-flowing brine for the sodium ions to transfer from the brine to the resin, and for hardness minerals released from the resin to transfer to the weakening brine. A low injector flow rate is desirable as a higher flow rate will cause the resin to become fluidized, reducing contact time with the brine.

BLFC (brine line flow control) determines the fill rate of water to enter the brine tank. Because the fill flow passes through the injector to flow to the BLFC flow restrictor button. the BLFC rate will need to be less than the injector flow rate otherwise, the injector will limit the fill rate, not the BLFC button as is to properly occur. IOW, to replace the #2 injector with a 00 injector, will also require replacing the 0.5 GPM BLFC button with a 0.125 GPM version.

To regenerate 45K grains usable capacity in 1.5 ft3 resin requires 22.5 lbs salt, not 18 lbs as you had previously configured. Whether 18 or 22 lbs, regenerating 45K grains Capacity in a 1.5 ft3 softener would be inefficient. (ex: 45,000 / 22.5 lbs = 2,000 gr/lb Hardness Reduction Efficiency)

For most applications, an efficient 8 lbs/ft3 is typically recommended, so for 1.5 ft3 systems, 12 lbs salt will regenerate 36K grains usable Capacity. To dissolve 12 lbs salt will require 4-gallons to enter the brine tank so 0.125 GPM BLFC will then require BF= 32-minutes. (36,000 / 12 lbs = 3,000 gr/lb Hardness Reduction Efficiency)

Brine Draw and Slow Rinse are actually 2-cycles that are combined together and called BD or Brine. The first stage of BD will transfer all of the brine to the media tank. Once all of the brine has been transferred, Slow Rinse will continue to push the brine (up) through the media and then out to drain which will also rinse away the hardness minerals that are released from the resin media. The entire BD setting will be normally 4X the time needed to transfer the correct quantity of brine from the brine tank to the media tank.

 

[Reach4]

You set capacity at 33.1k, even though I have a 45k softener. I am guessing this is because we are using the more efficient 7lbs/cuft resin, vs 15lbs for max capacity?

Yes. Here are some choices IF 0.125 gpm BLFC:

Revised based on number from https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/help-for-programming-fleck-5810.82673/#post-595983
BLFC = 0.125
cubic ft resin = 1.5
Alternative C and BF pairs:
lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
5.000 ; 28.7 ; 20
5.250 ; 29.4 ; 21
5.500 ; 30.2 ; 22
5.750 ; 30.9 ; 23
6.000 ; 31.5 ; 24 **less salt use with moderate hardness breakthru
6.250 ; 32.2 ; 25
6.500 ; 32.8 ; 26
6.750 ; 33.4 ; 27
7.000 ; 33.9 ; 28 ** 7 lb/sqft
7.250 ; 34.5 ; 29
7.500 ; 35.0 ; 30
7.750 ; 35.5 ; 31
8.000 ; 36.0 ; 32 ** 8lb/sqft
8.250 ; 36.4 ; 33
8.500 ; 36.9 ; 34
8.750 ; 37.3 ; 35 **softer

 

[Reach4]

the BLFC rate will need to be less than the injector flow rate otherwise, the injector will limit the fill rate, not the BLFC button as is to properly occur.

NO. It's the BLFC that meters the fill. I really think you should check.

If 0.5 gpm BLFC:
BLFC = 0.5
cubic ft resin = 1.5
Alternative C and BF pairs:
lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=

5.000 ; 28.7 ; 5
6.000 ; 31.5 ; 6
7.000 ; 33.9 ; 7
8.000 ; 36.0 ; 8
9.000 ; 37.7 ; 9

 

[Mike89]

Thanks Bannerman, slowly sinking in. If BD is 4*BF, does that mean I have to set BD at 128 minutes when I get the 0.125 BLFC and the violet injector (for a BF of 32 minutes)?

Looks like I need to purchase PN 60022-12 (BLFC assembly, 0.125GPM) (or just the 0.125GPM button, PN 17307) and PN 18272-00 (Injector assembly 00, violet).

I guess I still have to check the BLFC, looks like a royal pain to see the markings on that small disk though...

Hopefully these are not too pricey. I am a bit miffed that this came so messed up from the vendor. I mean it's functional, but not set up for optimal efficiency. Wonder if they do that to get the service time down, get it back in service ealier?

PS Thanks Reach4 for the efficiency charts and BF values, that will be really helpful.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks Bannerman, slowly sinking in. If BD is 4*BF, does that mean I have to set BD at 128 minutes when I get the 0.125 BLFC and the violet injector (for a BF of 32 minutes)?

3.5x is usually enough, and even 3x may do it. 4x adds more margin. The purpose of the BD time after the brine is drawn is to slowly move the residual salt out with slow laminar flow. If BF is too short, there will be some extra residual salt in the first several gallons of water use after regen.

Looks like I need to purchase PN 60022-12 (BLFC assembly, 0.125GPM) (or just the 0.125GPM button, PN 17307) and PN 18272-00 (Injector assembly 00, violet).

If you receive the wrong injector vs what you ordered, IMO you should expect the seller to make good and not charge you for the #00 injector. I think there is not a problem with a 0.5 gpm DLFC paired with a #00 injector. It is just less granular, but should do fine.

 

[Bannerman]

f BD is 4*BF, does that mean I have to set BD at 128 minutes when I get the 0.125 BLFC and the violet injector (for a BF of 32 minutes)?

No. The BLFC flow rate is for Brine Fill only. The BLFC will not provide the same flow restriction during Brine Draw as it does during Brine Fill since the drawn brine will flow around the perimeter of the button in addition to through the button's center hole. During Brine Draw, the draw rate is determined by the injector and because the injector flow rate is to be greater than the BLFC flow rate, the Brine Draw rate will therefore be greater than the Brine Fill rate.

Downflow is most commonly recommended for a residential softener because downflow is simpler, less temperamental and less critical to configure. A larger injector is utilized as there is no concern with fluidizing the resin during the Brining cycle. With the reduced injector flow needed for Upflow, recommend to program the entire BD cycle to be 4X the time required to draw all of the brine from the brine tank, which will help to ensure all of the released hardness minerals and residual brine is thoroughly flushed out from the top of the media tank to drain.

Any residual brine or hardness minerals remaining at the top of the media tank at the conclusion of the BD cycle, will be pushed back down into the media during the following Rapid Rinse phase of regeneration. This is undesirable. Rapid Rinse enters from the top of the media tank at 2.4 GPM (the DLFC flow rate), flowing downward through the resin media to compact the resin granules closer together to reduce the amount of hardness leakage through the resin while softened water is flowing to your home's fixtures.

 

[Reach4]

With 7 lb/cuft salting, I predict BD at about
83.2 minutes for 3.5x and 95.1 minutes for 4x.

With 8 lb/cuft, about 95.1 minutes for 3.5x and 108.7 minutes for 4x.

You could time the amount to draw all of the brine if you like, and then apply your factor for BD.

 

[Mike89]

3.5x is usually enough, and even 3x may do it. 4x adds more margin. The purpose of the BD time after the brine is drawn is to slowly move the residual salt out with slow laminar flow. If BF is too short, there will be some extra residual salt in the first several gallons of water use after regen.


If you receive the wrong injector vs what you ordered, IMO you should expect the seller to make good and not charge you for the #00 injector. I think there is not a problem with a 0.5 gpm DLFC paired with a #00 injector. It is just less granular, but should do fine.

I suspect they put #2 injectors in everything, for both downflow valves and upflow valves. I did not specifically order upflow or a given injector (I mostly did not know what I was talking about), so I don't expect them to give me the parts for free. Looks like its about 15USD for the washer and injector, so not a big deal. I'll still contact them so I can avoid shipping costs.

PS Ordered the #00 violet injector and the 0.125GPM BLFC button. In the meantime running BF =7 BD =28, with 33.1k capacity (7lbs/cuft). Thanks for the input, it has been very useful. Pentair should really have a tutorial out there, I can't imagine I am the only one confused about the BF/BD settings and injector/BLFC relationships.

 

[Mike89]

So I finally installed the #00 violet injector and 0.125GPM BLFC. I can see the system regenerated while I was away, and the brine tank looks empty (plenty of salt, no water). I now have my option set to UFFF(Up Flow, Fill First), to make sure there is water in the tank before the brine draw... Another menu item popped up once I changed to fill first, called SV (Service position, now set to 60, hopefully that is OK). I set my BF for 28 minutes, and my BD to 100 minutes. Looking forward to leaving this alone for a long time once it is set