Pump and Well Problem

[Gary Bowling]

I live in N. MI and have a submerged well pump. I am a pretty handy person, but know very little about wells and pump service.

A few days ago we noticed low pressure. Looking at the gauge in the basement, it reads about 20 PSI and doesn't change much. I really never hear the pressure switch turn on off. The pressure switch is a 30/50 switch, but I'm not sure if it was set to something lower. My water piping is 3/4 inch, so it may have been set lower.

When I turn the breaker to the pump off, with every faucet turned off, the water pressure goes down (eventually to 0) and I can hear water running backwards down to the well. So I think I have a backflow problem at the very least.

While the pressure was down, I checked the bladder pressure in the pressure tank. It was a little low at around 18psi so I added some are to about 27PSI. When I turned the pump back on that actually got the pressure gauge up to around 38-40psi.

I can't really tell when the pump is running other than some times seeing the pressure going back up a bit.

Something just isn't right about it and I'm concerned with the backflow like it is. Could the pump be running all the time due to the backflow problem?

I have called a well guy, but in this area they are really backed up, so I'm not sure when he can come check it. We get a lot of snow here and if we get into snow season before I get this fixed, I'm not sure a truck can get to the well. Would be a long winter without water, so I'm trying to address it now if possible.

Any advice would be welcomed. Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

1. Turn off the pump, and see if the pressure indication falls to zero. If not, open a faucet, which makes sure the pressure goes to zero. You may need a new gauge. 0-100 psi gauge is better than a higher range. You might even use a zero-60psi gauge. https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=water pressure gauge
You can also use a garden hose thread gauge as a supplement until you get your regular pressure gauge working.

2. Get a clamp-around ammeter. That can be useful in diagnosing things. Knowing the current would be more helpful if you knew the HP of the pump, but even without knowing that, it is useful.

3. There should be a check valve at the pump, and usually there should be no topside check valve. If you are draining water back, that could be failure of the check valve at the pump, a hole in the piping, or a failed o-ring at the pitless adapter.

3. While watching the current on one hot wire is more informative, you can measure the voltage between terminals 2 and 3 (typically) to see what voltage is being output from the pressure switch.

 

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[Gary Bowling]

1. Turn off the pump, and see if the pressure indication falls to zero. If not, open a faucet, which makes sure the pressure goes to zero. You may need a new gauge. 0-100 psi gauge is better than a higher range. You might even use a zero-60psi gauge. https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=water pressure gauge
You can also use a garden hose thread gauge as a supplement until you get your regular pressure gauge working.

2. Get a clamp-around ammeter. That can be useful in diagnosing things. Knowing the current would be more helpful if you knew the HP of the pump, but even without knowing that, it is useful.

3. There should be a check valve at the pump, and usually there should be no topside check valve. If you are draining water back, that could be failure of the check valve at the pump, a hole in the piping, or a failed o-ring at the pitless adapter.

3. While watching the current on one hot wire is more informative, you can measure the voltage between terminals 2 and 3 (typically) to see what voltage is being output from the pressure switch.

Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it.

For 1. above. I think my gauge is ok, it's a 0-100psi gauge and seems to work ok.

For 2. I have a clamp ammeter, good advice. I tracked it down in my shop and it looks like the pump is pulling 6.3 amps all the time. I watched it for 15 minutes with no water running in the house and it never changed, 6.3 all the time.

For 3. I'm pretty sure this is what's happening. When I turn off the pump, I can hear the water draining back down the pipe and the pressure meter goes down to zero. Also get a bunch of sediment in my water when I turn it back on.


- How should I handle this until a well service guy can come? Should I turn the breaker off at night? Maybe I should turn the breaker off except for during meal times when we really need the water?

 

[Taylorjm]

So it's never getting up to pressure and turning the pump off?

 

[Gary Bowling]

So it's never getting up to pressure and turning the pump off?

NO.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it.

For 1. above. I think my gauge is ok, it's a 0-100psi gauge and seems to work ok.

For 2. I have a clamp ammeter, good advice. I tracked it down in my shop and it looks like the pump is pulling 6.3 amps all the time. I watched it for 15 minutes with no water running in the house and it never changed, 6.3 all the time.

For 3. I'm pretty sure this is what's happening. When I turn off the pump, I can hear the water draining back down the pipe and the pressure meter goes down to zero. Also get a bunch of sediment in my water when I turn it back on.

I would tend to put the same pump back down. Others would want to replace the pump figuring a new pump will last longer.
- How should I handle this until a well service guy can come? Should I turn the breaker off at night? Maybe I should turn the breaker off except for during meal times when we really need the water?

If you have a 1/2 HP pump, 6.3 is really high, and would indicate a big hole.
If you have a 3/4 HP pump, that is a more normal number, and you would still have a hole or a leak.

Yes, turn off the breaker off at night until the well service comes out. I would keep it off most of the day too.

When your pump gets pulled, take a photo of both labels. Also try to note the water line on the drop pipe so you know how far down the static water level is.

And note how far down the pump is. You probably have 20 ft pieces coupled. So count, and estimate the length of the short piece if there is one.

And do that stuff while trying to stay out of the way.

 

[Gary Bowling]

If you have a 1/2 HP pump, 6.3 is really high, and would indicate a big hole.
If you have a 3/4 HP pump, that is a more normal number, and you would still have a hole or a leak.

Yes, turn off the breaker off at night until the well service comes out. I would keep it off most of the day too.

When your pump gets pulled, take a photo of both labels. Also try to note the water line on the drop pipe so you know how far down the static water level is.

And note how far down the pump is. You probably have 20 ft pieces coupled. So count, and estimate the length of the short piece if there is one.

And do that stuff while trying to stay out of the way.

Thank you. I finally got a well service company that can come reasonably quickly on Sat (tomorrow).

I found some info from the county well drilling records showing the original well was drilled in 1971, was 125ft deep and has 80ft of casing. But that data is not current as it also shows a 2" casing and the current one is plastic and is 5". But maybe that does tell the depth. I took the cover off the well and it's a 3 wire.

I will most definitely take pictures and document what is there when it's pulled up.

Thanks for all the help and info.

 

[Reach4]

One of the 3 wires you see may be a ground. In that case, you say that it uses a 2-wire pump. If you have a 3-wire pump, the output of the pressure switch would go to a control box. From there, 3 wires +ground would go down the casing.

Old rules did not require a ground wire, thinking that things down the well were pretty grounded anyway, especially if it is a steel casing.

PVC plastic casing is much better.

You could also read up on "flow inducer". In that regard, your well person may not usually do that. So with a bottom feeding well, which you probably have , the flow inducer may not add a lot. The great majority of people do not have flow inducers.

If you look under the well cap down to the pitless adapter, when the pump is on, you may see (and hear) water spewing out. Worst case would be the hole is in the yard between the house and the pitless. Since you have not noted flooding in the yard, that seems less probable.

 

[Gary Bowling]

One of the 3 wires you see may be a ground. In that case, you say that it uses a 2-wire pump. If you have a 3-wire pump, the output of the pressure switch would go to a control box. From there, 3 wires +ground would go down the casing.

Old rules did not require a ground wire, thinking that things down the well were pretty grounded anyway, especially if it is a steel casing.

PVC plastic casing is much better.

You could also read up on "flow inducer". In that regard, your well person may not usually do that. So with a bottom feeding well, which you probably have , the flow inducer may not add a lot. The great majority of people do not have flow inducers.

If you look under the well cap down to the pitless adapter, when the pump is on, you may see (and hear) water spewing out. Worst case would be the hole is in the yard between the house and the pitless. Since you have not noted flooding in the yard, that seems less probable.

You are correct!

One of the wires is indeed a ground and it's a 2-wire pump. There are 3 wires down the hole, red/black/green, and there is NO control box in the house.

The pitless adapter is about 4 ft down, I can see it with a flashlight but I cannot hear any splashing or spewing of water when the pump is on. If I put my ear down to the casing, I can hear it running but nothing sounds really bad.

In reading a bit about your recommendation of a flow inducer, it looks like that is a pump cooling thing. I wonder, living in Northern MI where the water temp in the heat of the summer is quite cold, whether such a device is of any value. Last summer we did reach 90 degrees two days. It's not an area where overheating is generally a thing we think of. Freezing, yes, overheating not so much. But maybe I don't know what I'm talking about with well pumps.

 

[Reach4]

The only heat you would be worried about for the motor is from the motor. Water flowing past the motor cools the motor. With a 3/4 HP motor, there is less concern than for a 1.5 HP motor.

Surface temperatures will have a negligible effect on temperatures down the hole.

 

[Gary Bowling]

The only heat you would be worried about for the motor is from the motor. Water flowing past the motor cools the motor. With a 3/4 HP motor, there is less concern than for a 1.5 HP motor.

Surface temperatures will have a negligible effect on temperatures down the hole.

Surface temperature yes, but water temp here is very cold. It's hard to hold your hand under the cold water here for any significant amount of time.

At any rate, the well guys came out today. They verified what we had surmised here, that either the check valve was bad, the pump was cracked, or the pipe was cracked. Turned out to be the valve.

The pump was actually a 1/2HP, which we all thought was a tad undersized, had a date on it of 1995. We replaced it with a 3/4HP Flint & Walling. Got it all back going in about 3 hours.

I learned a lot through this exercise and hopefully it won't need anything for another 27 years, I'll probably not be alive then so I won't worry about it. And thanks to everyone here, always a great resource!

One last question. Has anyone put a "soft start" on their well pump? I have a whole home generator and soft starts tend to be good for the generator. I have one on my HVAC system and it helps a lot. Supposedly better on the equipment as well.

 

[Reach4]

The pumps with a soft start control up top are going to add a point of failure.

The 3-inch SQ pumps have soft start built in.

Before the failure, was the old pump underpowered? I might have left the old pump in place.

And to be clear, it was the check valve, right above the pump, had a housing that was cracked that was cracked, right?

It would have been nice to take photos of 4 labels -- two on each pump.

 

[Gary Bowling]

The pumps with a soft start control up top are going to add a point of failure.

The 3-inch SQ pumps have soft start built in.

Before the failure, was the old pump underpowered? I might have left the old pump in place.

And to be clear, it was the check valve, right above the pump, had a housing that was cracked that was cracked, right?

It would have been nice to take photos of 4 labels -- two on each pump.

Was the old pump underpowered? I'm not real sure, I think it was borderline, but it worked for many years so not sure that was a problem. Would have been a reasonable idea to leave the old one in place, but I'm not sure the service company had the parts to repair it. To me, not knowing, it looked like one contained unit, as did the new pump. In the cold, on a Saturday, with no water if it wasn't repaired, and a pump with a date of 1995 on it, I chose to replace it. The well service guy seemed to think it would be better served by going up to a 3/4hp pump. The price difference wasn't very much, so that's what I chose.\

If I had more time to think it through, I might have gone a different route, but I'm not sure.

I didn't find two labels on the old pump. Here's a pic of the label that was on it and a pic just after it was taken out and a pic of the label from the new one.






and a pic of the fine young men installing it.

 

[Reach4]

Does the Myers pump say 257152-22?

In pumps, a 7gpm 1/2 hp pump, which I suspect the old one was, is about as strong in developing pressure as a 10 gpm 3/4 hp pump.

I am very glad you got the prompt service. Serious winter is a very bad time to swap pumps.

Go ahead and record the current your new pump draws, for later comparison.

Maybe take the notes you have, and tape them to the wall by the pressure tank.

 

[Gary Bowling]

Does the Myers pump say 257152-22?

In pumps, a 7gpm 1/2 hp pump, which I suspect the old one was, is about as strong in developing pressure as a 10 gpm 3/4 hp pump.

I am very glad you got the prompt service. Serious winter is a very bad time to swap pumps.

Go ahead and record the current your new pump draws, for later comparison.

Maybe take the notes you have, and tape them to the wall by the pressure tank.

Actually the Myers pump is a 2NFL52-12, but I think your comments are still accurate.

Great idea about taping the notes to the wall!! I'll do that. I was a bit surprised about the current draw, the old pump was drawing 6.3amps (230v) while it was running. The label on the new pump says it draws 6.8amps.

However, when we turned it on and watched it on the amp meter, it was drawing 8.7 amps. I will watch it for a few days/weeks as that might just be because it's tight and needs a bit of a break in period.

Yes I am also very glad I got it done, the forecast is for snow every day for the next week+. I live in a lake effect snow zone, we average about 170" per year, it'll snow most days for the next two months. There is a reason the ski resort is two miles from my house


Update: I looked up the pump performance curves for the two pumps, the Myers pump comes in 1/2-1 1/2HP, the F&W in 1/2-3HP. The Myers curves are a bit stronger than the F&W for the two models in question, but the Myers 1/2 isn't quiet as strong as the F&W 3/4. At 10GPM, the Myers 1/2HP gives about 190 head in feet, the 3/4HP F&W about 260 head in feet. With my system and piping (3/4") the difference isn't noticeable.

 

[Reach4]

Your water may not be so far down. How long does it take to cycle? You would like the pump to run a minute or more. Are you getting closer to 30 seconds minimum run?

 

[Gary Bowling]

Your water may not be so far down. How long does it take to cycle? You would like the pump to run a minute or more. Are you getting closer to 30 seconds minimum run?

I had no idea! haha. But man you're good, I went to the mechanical room, turned on the water and let it run until the pump came on (40psi), started a stopwatch and cut the water off. It took 1 minute and 4 seconds to get to 60psi and cut off. That should be the minimum as I turned off the faucet when it kicked on so there was no water running anywhere. That seems pretty good based on your info.

For what it's worth, I was surprised how much water I had to run to get it to come on, wow.

 

[Reach4]

Nice. How big is your tank?

I think your pump people may have turned your pressure switch up to 40/60 from the previous 30/50.

 

[Gary Bowling]

Nice. How big is your tank?

I think your pump people may have turned your pressure switch up to 40/60 from the previous 30/50.

I think the tank is 40 gallon? Does that make sense? I don't see the tag for it, it must be against the wall on the back side.

They did change the pressure switch. Is that a good idea? Easy enough for me to take it back to 30/50 which is what the switch says on the cover plate.

 

[Reach4]

44 gallon is a common size, but it is above average. That is what I have. A 44 gallon tank will hold about 11 gallons of water, with the rest being compressed air. The air precharge would typically be 38 psi with a 40/60 tank and a submersible pump. I am confident they added air to your tank. Air precharge is always set and checked with water pressure zero.

They will have kicked up sediment while pulling the pump. Your cartridge filter may get a little extra sediment to deal with for a while.

Come spring, I would sanitize my well and plumbing. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ Over the winter, you have plenty of time to accumulate materials.

Some prefer the 40/60 over 30/50, especially for a two-story house over a basement. I have my pressure set to about 38/58. I don't notice much difference vs 30/50.

So to replace a working pressure switch while replacing other stuff? I am not sure.