Prevention of Electrocution in Weather

[CHOLLA BOB]

In the Electricity and Death thread, jwelectric gives a good rundown on different shock categories. What is the best way to prevent getting shocked while working on a Main Breaker Box that has no main shutoff? Many people change breakers on live boxes and I am fine with it when conditions are dry, but at this time of year, there is rain and snow. I have seen elevator repairmen stand on two inch rubber mats and wear heavy gloves. Are these gloves leather or rubber? I stand with safety glasses on a tire topped with plywood and wear rubberized gloves, but the tire has a steel belt and the gloves are probably not thick enough. What is the best protective gear to work under weather conditions? Can it be safe to work in weather conditions? Can there be an arc between bars while changing a breaker? Snow on ground or moist ground or ice is the case here; not in rain or blizzard.

 

[JWelectric]

The tire and plywood is useless. The gloves you are using must have their category listed on the sleeve or they are useless. A full face shield is needed as well as fire retardant clothing. The tools being used are to have their voltage rating marked on the tool. This is according to NFPA70E and OSHA.

The first rule in installing breakers is to have the breaker turned off and no conductors connected to it.
After connecting the conductors to the breaker don’t stand in front of it when turning it on for the first time. Standing to the side will give some protection should there be a flash over due to a fault in the wiring of the circuit.

Lastly and most important is to know in your heart soul and mind that your safety is your responsibly and only you can perform an unsafe act.

If you are asking about your well connection I would use the breaker that is already installed and be sure that you are dry. Standing on the plywood will give some measure of safety but putting a tire under it will not be very stable and could lead to something not so nice.

Never work in a live panel by yourself. Always have a buddy standing by just in case something does go wrong to dial 911. Be sure that they understand that should you come in contact with something energized they are not to reach out and grab hold of you or there will not be anyone to dial 911.

By the way did I mention that you should never work in a live panel by yourself? Let me also add that should something go wrong that person should not reach out and grab you or both will be in trouble.

And one more thing that I should tell you is that one should never work in a live panel unless there is someone there to contact emergency personnel should something go wrong.

Always remember that the panel you are working in is live. In such a case there should be someone standing close by to contact the proper people should something go wrong.

And the last piece of advice I can give you when working in a live panel is to have your buddy, brother, sister, wife, girlfriend, mom, dad, or just some old drunk walking down the street to keep an open eye just in case you need help.

EDITED TO ADD

One should never work in a live panel without someone standing there to contact the proper personal should something go wrong. That person needs to understand that should something go wrong they are not to reach out and grab you but instead find (or have with them) something that is not conductive to knock you free and then call 911.

I do hope that I have stressed the importance of having your buddy close at hand.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[CHOLLA BOB]

The first rule in installing breakers is to have the breaker turned off and no conductors connected to it.

In installing a breaker, the breaker is switched to the off position, but is this stating that wires are not connected to breaker or there is no demand of electricity through the attached wires? Is the breaker placed into the box with the switch off and then wires inserted and tightened into the breaker terminals?

Thanks for the info on the tire and plywood and protective clothing as I was never sure of this. As the elevator operator had the 2-4 inch rubber mat for the moist basement elevator room floor, is there a optimal surface to stand on? Do certain types of shoes make the difference? I read of rated clothing in our utility newspaper and it included extra dense leather gloves that are forearm length, face shield, heavy fire retardant overalls.

I had met a maintenance person who was changing fluorescent bulbs in a warehouse on a metal scaffold and the fixture voltage travelled through his arm and paralyzed forearm muscles for life. My wife's brother died by lightening strike and would prefer me to use an electrician for final hookup. Probably a good idea in these conditions.

I will make sure a real live person is spotting any breaker work, instead of a cell phone. If a shock occurred while handling a breaker, sounds like electricity cycles from the box through the person to the ground, and freezes the person with electrical flow. The second person has to knock installer out of the electrical path with a wood beam or plastic ax handle or tire or anything to prevent them from being shocked. Best to have someone able and not too old or young or drunk or who would not mind watching installer get shocked.

This summer I was hesitant to work on the main even a few days after a monsoon rain; only worked when the ground was dry. With ice, snow, and slush rain present on ground, the only option is a clear sky. Electrician would be a good idea for final hookup as is.

Thanks for the info as i was reading the OSHA guide on how to get electrocuted but was not finding info on how not to get electrocuted!

 

[JWelectric]

In installing a breaker the breaker is switched to the off position, but is this stating that wires are not connected to breaker or there is no demand of electricity through the attached wires? Is the breaker placed into the box with the switch off and then wires are inserted and tightened into the breaker terminals?

The breaker being installed needs to be in the off position and no conductor attached.
With the breaker off no current flows through the breaker and with no conductors the breaker is easier to maneuver around. With conductors attached the breaker can be in a bind and not go straight into the bus bar.
As to the load it could be a damaged conductor that is the load such as the problem you are having now. If this is a line to line problem the explosion that could occur could be catastrophic.

Thanks for the info on the tire and plywood and protective clothing as I was never sure of this. As the elevator operator had the 2-4 inch rubber mat for the moist basement elevator room floor, is there a optimal surface to stand on? Do certain types of shoes make the difference? I read of rated clothing in our utility newspaper and it included extra dense leather gloves that are forearm length, face shield, heavy fire retardant overalls.

The mat he was standing on was manufactured to certain standards. The gloves he was wearing usually are as follows. Cotton under rubber under leather, the rubber gloves will have a voltage rating and are marked 00 through 4. Go to this link for more information
http://www.salisburybyhoneywell.com/en-US/Pages/default.aspx

Wear something that is rubber such as rubber boots that I hope you are wearing out in all that snow and be sure that you have on dry socks and pants. The plywood will be better than nothing as long as it is dry. You should get a mat but they are very expensive.
Any glove you might be wearing needs to be dry and fit properly. Rubber maid gloves should not be worn as they just don’t have the holding strength that you will need nor do they have any insulating value at all.

I had met a maintenance person who was changing florescent bulbs in a warehouse on a metal scaffold and the fixture voltage travelled through his arm and paralyzed forearm muscles for life. My wife's brother died by lightening strike and would prefer me to use an electrician for final hookup. Probably a good idea in these conditions.

At the age of 60 and having had three very important women in my life, grandma, mom, and the wife the one thing that I have learned is to treat any woman just like EF Hutton. When they speak every man should listen. There is nothing on earth as good as a woman’s intuition and every one of them seems to have eyes in the back of their heads. I must add that sometimes when they are instructing the male they do say some of the darnest things like, “if you fall and brake your leg don’t come running to me.†Now how do they expect us to come running with a broke leg?

I will make sure a real live person is spotting any breaker work, instead of a cell phone.

This is good but be sure they have a cell phone

Thanks for the info as i was reading the OSHA guide on how to get electrocuted but was not finding info on how not to get electrocuted!

Please be careful as it would hurt me deeply to learn that you got hurt doing this and me being the one who was advising you on the methods.
Do let us know when you have completed your project

 

[hj]

I would NEVER work on a live panel without wearing "hot gloves" with a rated dielectric strength of several thousand volts, and standing on a dielectric pad.

 

[CHOLLA BOB]

I am getting the picture: no wire or conductor attached to breaker when installing. Always have rated dielectric gloves, mat, face shield and fire retardant clothing. Stand laterally to box when installing breaker. Have a backup person with non-conductive knock object. Listen to the wife. I will look for safety items today when buying wire. With the weather and if I don't find all items, I will have electrician make final hook-up. Thanks! This thread will keep me alive for the New Years!

 

[DonL]

Can't You just Kill the main breaker ?

 

[CHOLLA BOB]

No main switch. Just a meter pull which is a 1000 dollar fine. They gave the neighbor grief over doing it. My electrician is going on vacation until the 2nd of January. I will look for safety equipment. Grainger's must have something decent. I am planning on switching out the main box ahead as it is time to upgrade. Too many problems so far; not up to code; and not enough space. Every DIY amateur needs a main switch to turn off the power. I will ask about another local electrician today at the hardware.

 

[DonL]

OK, I thought I seen a main breaker in one of your pictures.

Here if I pull a meter I just tell them that I did so, and they put on a new Tamper Tag.

I guess the rules may be different there.


P.S. You will pay more for the Proper Safety Equipment than the cost of the wire and Conduit.
Your electrician should be allowed to pull the Meter and should have the proper Safety Equipment.

 

[Rich B]

I do all kinds of things myself.......but I draw the line at doing something like this. A friend of mine and I did pull a meter and made a repair on a live buss bar in a meter pan.....HE was an electrician for 40 years...I trusted his judgement and we were successfull. I would NEVER do this myself and I work on live machines all the time in my shop. I was an electrician right out of high school and worked for a few years in that field.....I highly recommend you get a professional to do this work....If you saw what the potential energy can do that comes from a std 120/240 service drop you'd think twice about doing this....My job is one that we often did some work that required we worked in a live panel or switch. Things go wrong and as JW said you definately do not want to do this by yourself. Arc flash is something your really not ready for....trust me on that one....
Whenever there is no way to shut off the main line power the danger goes way up....

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I agree in that the proper rated safety equipment will cost more than bringing in an electrician to do the final connections.

 

[DonL]

True That Rich.

When I work on 600V 3 Phase Equipment Sometimes there is NO choice about killing power.
Proper Protective gear is used.

I would never change out a Live Power Panel, Even if the boss wanted me to.

It is better to be safe than sorry.

It is cheaper to pull the meter and pay the fine, Than paying for the Pine box...

 

[CHOLLA BOB]

I have worked with this panel live in dry weather and recently swapped out the well breaker. I started this thread to hear some experts convince me that this is not the best way to go and it's working! The cost of the safety gear would be expensive. The hardware store recommended two electricians and I will see if they can come out and hook-up. As the condition of this box is poor, I am fine with finding someone to finish the job. Doubt I will find anyone before Sunday! PS: I finally found my tamper tag on the ground after someone else's work.

 

[hj]

Unless this IS the main breaker in the box, why can't you disconnect the power?

 

[CHOLLA BOB]

This is the main service pole box below the utility meter. I have attached a few additional shots and the usual main box picture which shows this high plains electric situation. No main shutoff. Ground runs to meter and main box grounded through steel conduit. Dirt, wasp nests, and fried bugs which seems to be the reason my house breaker fried this summer. Missing steel breaker face plate. This box has become a curse. It is possible that there is a problem between the breaker and bar and I will find out after the underground line is installed. Just for the record, Harbor Freight Tools does not sell electrician's gloves, dielectric mats, and fire retardant clothing. But they do sell the flimsiest face shield you have ever seen. I was there tonight and it underscored everything in this thread. In addition, the ex-electrician at Home Depot told me serial electrocution stories and said I must have a hand over my head. The bottom line is no water for the holidays, but I have a solution for that which I will go over in the Service Pole to Well House Underground Line Specs thread. PS: I had no intention of buying Harbor Freight Safety Gear, but was mulling over the situation.

 

[Ballvalve]

Your existing well breaker has 12g wires coming out of it [?] why go to 10?

When you pull or turn off the well breaker, all is dead. I dont get the issue at all.

I dont think you will make the evening news even without swat team gear on. But this is new to you, so better get some more info. And do not get it at harbor fright.

 

[CHOLLA BOB]

That is observant! Those are 12ga wires running off of the breaker box down a length of five feet of conduit and coming out as white 2-10 with ground. Never realized. So the splice is in the conduit and another example of how screwed up this situation is. The well breaker flips off. Slow in freezing weather and fast in thawed or wet ground conditions. As the breaker flipped off with the line disconnected and capped, I figured it was the underground cable. Now, the 15 amp breaker next to the well breaker is on the blink. It could also be this bar behind the well and light breaker that is fried.

I replaced the 20 amp 2-pole a week ago. The house breaker replaced this summer. It's the wet conditions, this breaker box, and finding out how not to become a human conductor that is making me rethink the situation. The right gear and experience keeps the horse from injuring you: electricity seems not too different.

I only go to Harbor Freight Tools for the cheap disposables, chemical smells, and to brainstorm impossible situations. The cheap prices don't distract.

 

[CHOLLA BOB]

More electrocution: if I stand in front of the service pole breaker box, standing on snow or ice or moist ground, and flip a breaker, can I get shocked if a breaker is shorting? This main does not have an interior steel breaker plate which probably contains arcs behind the breaker within a grounded area.

 

[JWelectric]

Not just turning the breaker on or off.

After taking a close look at your service panel I am of the opinion that it would be a real good idea to have a professional take a look to see if there might be issues that need addressing. While he is there let him connect the conductors and inspect your work.

 

[Rich B]

Don......My working partner who is the service manager now at our compnay and I installed a 15kw air cooled generator at a hotel building once. It was a 480/277 unit. Very common 15JC Onan.....We had scads of them out in the field we serviced/repaired/installed etc....

We were all done and my partner was showing the maintenance guy or someone? the transfer switch and how it operates. He went to attach the claw probe of a Fluke meter to one terminal of the switch.....the claws on those probes open and are metal and supposed to have plastic covers on the back sides but they always get broken and his were......Well the metal claw touched 2 terminals on the switch dead shorting across 480volts.........I was less than 2 feet away and luckily turned my head. Quite a blast....We blew some fuses and after we got some new ones they also blew....The transfer switch had carbon tracking that made a connection anytime it was energized on the normal side.....

The very next day I was looking at a mig welder in a shop with him and when we powered it up and swicthed it to high rannge.....a can capacitor gasses internally as it had failed.....the can exploded and whisteld by my head as it shot across the shop like a rocket.....Mig welders have cap banks to help maintian a stable arc......

I was lucky....2 days in a row.....!!
I work on some equipment live that can have from 300 to 600 volts on certain components......
Welders that are inverters.......That voltage will stay on those caps for sometime. I dischrage them with a resistor with the line power off.....I work on welders live all the time....