Pressure tank - drained, but sloshing, 20 psi

[Beets]

The gauge on my pressure tank wasn't working. I drained the tank, and put a wrench on the gauge, and the nipple fell apart with virtually no torque. I suspect I could have broken it off with my hands (no tools). I'm so thankful I didn't have a flooded basement!

I tried to use an easy out to get the broken nipple out, but I don't have a large enough easy out. I then figured I would replaced the whole tee kit as it is 20 years old, and if one part is corroded that bad I would sleep better replacing the whole thing. That's when I discovered how heavy my tank was. I could hardly move it! That is with it drained......but it sloshes after draining. I measured the air pressure in the top of the tank to be 20 psi. It seemed to be functioning OK before I found all these problems.

It is a holiday here in Canada today. I have a 85 gallon tank, so it isn't going to be easy to locate one - especially during a holiday. I'm wondering about just replacing the Tee and putting the tank back into service to give me time to order a new tank. Can they last a while like this?

 

[Beets]

Any thoughts on where to get an 85 gallon tank? I think I found one at UFA. Is one tank as good as another? If there are quality differences, how does someone figure that out? Calgary Alberta area.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

I understand as with so many products these days, a large pressure tank may not be redily available.

A large pressure tank such as your 85 gallon, will hold about 22 gallons water so as to reduce the amount of cycling by your pump. It is cycling that will reduce the useable lifespan of your well pump, pressure tank, pressure switch, check-valve and other water delivery components.

To upgrade your well supply to extend it's lifespan by preventing cycling and to obtain constant pressure to your faucets and appliances, suggest installing a Cycle Stop Valve.

A premium quality 85-gallon tank such as manufactured by Well-X-Trol will be likely more costly than an entire PK1A kit shipped directly from the manufacturer in Texas. Because the CSV device will prevent pump cycling, a small 4.5-gallon pressure tank will probably be suitable for your application.

Cycle Stop Valves website

 

[Valveman]

Thanks Banerman! Yeah the old tank went bad because the pump was cycling on and off too much. The PK1A with a 4.5 gallon tank will do a better job than an 85 gallon tank. 86 gallon tanks are better than 80, 82, or 85 gallon tanks. The 86 would be an Amtrol tank, which are much better than other brands. But even good tanks won't last long when the pump is cycling on and off too much.

You can get the PK1ALT. The LT means less tank. You can pick up a 4.5 or so size tank locally. We do this because Canada charges so much for customs fees on top of high freight charges. The PK1A kit with the tank cost $497.00 shipped anywhere in the US. But it will cost twice that much sent to Canada, as Canada and other countries in the world add a high cost to anything coming from the US. Can't believe the US allows such unfair trade practices and makes it impossible for US companies to compete anywhere else in the world.

You can get the PK1ALT for $409.00, and without the tank will be much less expensive for freight and "customs" fees into Canada. We ship a lot to PO boxes in the US and Canadian customers drive over to pick them up. At least the ones that live close to the border have figured out how to get out of these Draconian Canadian and Un-American policies.

 

[Bannerman]

The PK1A kit with the tank cost $497.00 shipped anywhere in the US. But it will cost twice that much sent to Canada, as Canada and other countries in the world add a high cost to anything coming from the US.

Your website shows the complete PK1A kit is priced at $671.70 $Can, but of course, that does not include shipping or customs and other fees dictated by govmt.

As I anticipate all Amtrol tanks will be manufactured in the US, it is likely similar shipping, customs and fees will apply, even as Canadian dealers will incorporate those costs into the stated price.

Although any size pressure tank maybe utilized with a CSV, since there will normally be limited demand for 4.5-10 gallon tanks, perhaps Beets may be able to locate an exsisting instock tank in that capacity range from a local dealer for reasonable cost?

 

[Reach4]

Is one tank as good as another? If there are quality differences, how does someone figure that out?

You want a tank with a diaphragm, not a bladder. A butyl diaphragm is best, but mixed EPDM+butyl is decent enough.

The Well-X-Trol line have good features, but will cost a premium.

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I don't know the Red Lion brand, but it says butyl diaphragm.

Regarding putting the old tank back into service, add air as needed for temporary.

Is the failed tee centered under the tank? I don't see you successfully replacing that.

 

[Beets]

Thank you everyone for the feedback! I bought and replaced the tank with X-Trol. I managed to find a 62 Gallon one through a friend of friend who has his own home business and had a number in stock. @Reach4 had said it would be pricey, and I can verify it was about 50 to 100% more than some of the other options and it was smaller. Having said that, this was the only option today as all the stores that stocked any tanks of any sizer were closed. I had today off, I don't mind paying more for a good brand, so I took the plunge.

Someone mentioned using a smaller tank. I think larger tank is better for my needs. My well is 4 gpm which isn't overly productive. So larger tank is nice. I treat my water with hydrogen peroxide so I need retention time, and then I need rate for back washing a carbon filter. I'm taking a bit of a risk going down from 85 gallons to 62 gallons.

 

[Valveman]

I am glad you got it working. But I am afraid you jumped from the frying pan into the fire. The WX251 is a good tank. But it only holds 15 gallons of water compared to 20 from the old 80 gallon tank. The cycling on and off that destroyed the large tank will destroy the smaller tank that much quicker. Plus, a bad tank is just a sign the pump is being cycled to death, which will just be worse with the smaller tank.

The larger tank does not give you a higher rate of flow for backwashing. The tank might only have 1 gallon in it when the back wash happens. No matter as the rate of flow comes from the pump, not the tank anyway. With peroxide you do need retention time, which you are not getting with a bladder tank. The injected peroxide does not even have to go in the tank. It is being pumped directly past the tank and into the house straight and strong. A real retention tank accepts water in one end and delivers it from the other and does not have a bladder/diaphragm. A 60 gallon retention tank holds 60 gallons and would give you 12 minutes of retention time when using 5 GPM.

You low producing 4 GPM well also would have been better off with a smaller tank. After you stop using water the well/pump will need to put 15 gallons in the tank before it shuts off. Many times the well will be pumped dry while trying to refill a large tank. When this happens the pump loses prime, cannot reach 60 PSI to shut off, and the pump/motor overheats and destroys itself.

A low producing well is better served by a CSV and small tank. With the CSV the pump only draws as much water as you are using from the well instead of pumping full pump flow and filling the tank all the time. It is much better for the well and pump to draw 3 GPM from the well continuously while using a 3 GPM shower, than for the pump to draw 15 GPM, shut off, draw 15 GPM, shut off, over and over again as it does with just a large pressure tank.

There was absolutely no reason for the large and expensive tank. But you can make it better by still adding a CSV1A. In this way the CSV will fill the large pressure tank by 75% before the CSV starts delivering strong constant 55 PSI to your shower. The shower will be much stronger with 55 PSI constant than when cycling on and off between 40 and 60 over and over. When you do turn off the shower, the CSV will top off the last 25% of the tank at 1 GPM, keeping the 4 GPM well from being pumped dry while filling the tank.

With a CSV the only problems with the large tank is cost, space, and waiting for it to drain. The 15 gallons in the tank will supply a 3 GPM shower for 5 minutes as the pressure falls from 60 down to 40. So, the first 5 minutes of the shower will be decreasing pressure because of the large tank. But then the pump will start, the CSV will fill the tank 75%, and start delivering strong constant 55 PSI for the rest of the shower, even if you shower for a month.

I know it seems odd that a smaller tank is best after all these years of thinking bigger is better. The CSV is not new technology. It has been saving pumps and using smaller tanks for over 30 years. The big pump manufacturers blacklisted the CSV in 1994 and try to keep you from knowing about it because they like it when cycling destroys a tank or pump. They like it even better when you replace a tank that was already giving problems with an even smaller tank, as you will need another tank plus a new pump very soon. The CSV and small tank would make the pump system last 30 years, and they don't like that.

The pump was already cycling like crazy with the old tank being waterlogged. I would have just purchased a new 5 gallon size tank and let the pump continue to cycle like crazy for a few days until the CSV1A arrived. When the CSV1A is installed all the problems will go away.

 

[Reach4]

In order to have the tank reliably provide high flow for backwashing, the backwashing would have to be done in cycles. I don't know if your valve can do that.

So the gpm assist will be probabilistic. Is that 5 gpm backwash on a 10 inch tank?

And your 4 gpm well number-- the pump can actually deliver more than that, right?

 

[Beets]

Thank you for the comments @valveman. I hadn't thought about the fact that I might only have 1 gallon in the pressure tank when the back wash begins. You are right, I'm relying on the pump at that point. I just started a backwash. The pump builds pressure during the back wash cycle. That would suggest my backwash rate is not affected by the smaller tank. I do have a retention tank downstream of the pressure tank. As far as I know, I've never sucked my well dry in the past.

 

[Valveman]

Thank you for the comments @valveman. I hadn't thought about the fact that I might only have 1 gallon in the pressure tank when the back wash begins. You are right, I'm relying on the pump at that point. I just started a backwash. The pump builds pressure during the back wash cycle. That would suggest my backwash rate is not affected by the smaller tank. I do have a retention tank downstream of the pressure tank. As far as I know, I've never sucked my well dry in the past.

Yeah your water comes from the well and pump, not the tank. The pressure tanks only purpose is to limit the on/off cycles, and when you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a large tank is not needed. Pressure is actually stronger with the small tank as the CSV is maintaining 50 PSI constant no matter how, how much, or where you use water.

 

[Beets]

@valveman I did a bit of reading about the Cycle Stop Valve, but not a lot. It's an interesting idea. I work a with centrifugal pumps, but not well water pumps. I hope you don't mind a few questions.

To reduce the flow rate, I believe the CSV increases the back pressure on the pump. With the pumps I work with, this would create downthrust on the pumps and place them in a portion of the curve where we would expect accelerated pump wear. We can select pumps that are immune to the downthurst. Do water well pumps have any limitations with respect to downthrust? They are quite low pressure, so I'm expecting probably not an issue, but I thought I would ask.

As the CSV reduces flow, I would expect the surface pressures to climb. How high might these climb? Is there any issues with exceeding the pressure rating of lines? Is there any checks a DIY has to do before buying/installing to ensure they don't overpressure their lines?

I think (?) you keep a minimum 1 GPM flow. Is that to provide cooling?

How do folks use the CSV with water treatment? My hydrogen peroxide pump is wired to the pressure switch. If the flow rate is a function of the CSV, then I suspect my dosing would be off. What is the work around?

One of the underlying assumptions with the CSV is that there reducing pump cycles will increase the longevity of the pump. A second assumption is that pump longevity has less to do with the number of rotations a pump spins over it's life verses the number of cycles. Is this based on common sense, field observations, or statistical analysis?

 

[Reach4]

How do folks use the CSV with water treatment? My hydrogen peroxide pump is wired to the pressure switch. If the flow rate is a function of the CSV, then I suspect my dosing would be off. What is the work around?
With a CSV, you would have to have a proportional injection pump and a sensor that provides the flow. The upside of that method is that you inject H2O2 after the pressure tank, and potentially right before the contact/settling tank. Thus the pressure tank does not deal with sediment produced by oxidation before the pressure tank.

 

[Valveman]

@valveman I did a bit of reading about the Cycle Stop Valve, but not a lot. It's an interesting idea. I work a with centrifugal pumps, but not well water pumps. I hope you don't mind a few questions.

To reduce the flow rate, I believe the CSV increases the back pressure on the pump. With the pumps I work with, this would create downthrust on the pumps and place them in a portion of the curve where we would expect accelerated pump wear. We can select pumps that are immune to the downthurst. Do water well pumps have any limitations with respect to downthrust? They are quite low pressure, so I'm expecting probably not an issue, but I thought I would ask.

As the CSV reduces flow, I would expect the surface pressures to climb. How high might these climb? Is there any issues with exceeding the pressure rating of lines? Is there any checks a DIY has to do before buying/installing to ensure they don't overpressure their lines?

I think (?) you keep a minimum 1 GPM flow. Is that to provide cooling?

How do folks use the CSV with water treatment? My hydrogen peroxide pump is wired to the pressure switch. If the flow rate is a function of the CSV, then I suspect my dosing would be off. What is the work around?

One of the underlying assumptions with the CSV is that there reducing pump cycles will increase the longevity of the pump. A second assumption is that pump longevity has less to do with the number of rotations a pump spins over it's life verses the number of cycles. Is this based on common sense, field observations, or statistical analysis?

Good questions. They are all answered with curves and facts in our web page. But I will answer here to save you hundreds of pages of reading. For the CSV to be such a simple valve, it has a million uses and a complicated explanation. The first thing to know is that the CSV is such a perfect pump control it was blacklisted by most pump manufacturers as far back as 1994. The quote from one CEO was..."Cycle Stop Valves makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks. This company makes pumps and tanks, so anyone who even mentions a CSV will be fired immediately." There are no flaws with the CSV method of control. But there are lots of people who don't understand how good CSV's are for pumps.

As long as the thrust bearing stays cool and is rated to handle the max load, downthrust does not accelerate wear. The back pressure and downthrust will be as much as the particular pump can build. But no pump can create more back pressure than it can handle, and 1 GPM at reduced amperage is more than sufficient to keep the thrust bearing and everything else cool. Back pressure the pump can build is one thing we figure to size the CSV and to make sure your pipe is adequate. But unlike a piston type pump that keeps building pressure until something explodes, a centrifugal pump has a set max pressure and it is easy to figure as it is on the pump specs or curve. Typical back pressure of a submersible is between 100 and 150 PSI, while most house plumbing is rated for 160# or more, and well pipe is rated for many hundreds of PSI. Increasing the back pressure is what keeps the pump from cycling itself to death and makes everything last longer.

Pumps are made for "continuous duty" (run 24/7/365) and says so right on the side of any motor. I have one on a stock well that hasn't turned off in 22 years so far. Sub pumps with Kingsbury thrust bearings are completely frictionless when up and running. The only time they wear is on start up when there is no lubricating film of water between the thrust shoes and plate, and from torque. The fact that pumps will last forever when running 24/7 and won't last long if cycling on and off is known from statistical analysis, field observations, and is also just common sense if you know how pumps work. But is completely counter intuitive if you don't understand the basic fundamentals of a centrifugal pump.

As was said, when injecting chemicals into the water with a variable flow pump system like the CSV, it is best to have a variable flow injector reading a flow meter as well. But that is rarely needed. With a CSV, even though you may have a 10-15 GPM pump, the CSV makes it supply only the amount you are using. Normally just setting the injector pump for the average flow rate used instead of the pumps max flow rate is all that is needed. The average flow needed by a house is only 3-5 GPM. With a little trial and error you can set the injector as needed. In other words, just turn the injector pump down until you get the residual you desire.

 

[Beets]

Thank you. I have 1" green line poly coming into my house from the well. I don't see a pressure rating on the line, but google suggests it is 100 psi. Does that sound correct? Is that an odd thing to run from a pump to the house?

 

[Valveman]

Thank you. I have 1" green line poly coming into my house from the well. I don't see a pressure rating on the line, but google suggests it is 100 psi. Does that sound correct? Is that an odd thing to run from a pump to the house?

100# pipe underground is not normal. Usually 160# or better is used. But the burst pressure of any pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure, so it will take more than you think. But that is why we check the back pressure when using a CSV as we want to make sure the pump is not too large for the pipe and/or the CSV itself. Many house pumps will have less than 100 PSI back pressure so, even 100# pipe is not an issue on those.

 

[BoneyardCycle]

Any thoughts on where to get an 85 gallon tank? I think I found one at UFA. Is one tank as good as another? If there are quality differences, how does someone figure that out? Calgary Alberta area.

From the advice of a few Technicians in the business, I bought the Amtrol "WellxTrol" WX 250 PRO series (44gal./13 draw), it was aboutt $800cdn....don't bother with the cheap box store brands. Also, why is you pump quick cycling, you need to find the root cause, which, could be your pressure tank. Another check is to listen for your pump at 3am (when everyone in the house is sleeping, no activity), it should NOT be coming on. If it is cycling, check for small leaks, dripping faucets, toilet plunger not seating, etc...make sure nothing is drawing down your tank to turn the pump on.

 

[Valveman]

You can get a Water Worker brand from a box store and it will cost about half that much. Water Worker is made by Amtrol and there is not a nickel worth of difference in them and the ones with Amtrol and Well-X-Trol name on it. They just don't put Amtrol on it anywhere so they can tell their contractors they don't sell the good tanks at the box stores.

Yes a bad tank causes quick cycling. But the tank bladder broke because of the so called normal cycling. Cycling of any kind is what destroys pumps. Normal cycling leads to rapid cycling once the tank is bad, but it all adds up to a burned up motor.

Eliminating the cycling with a Cycle Stop Valve makes even cheap and/or small tanks last a long time. Eliminating the cycling also makes the pump last several times longer than normal. You can't put on a large enough tank to stop the cycling the way a Cycle Stop Valve does.

 

[Reach4]

Water Worker is built to a lower standard than Well-X-Trol.
Water worker ... brand for big box made by amtrol. Butyl/EPDM diaphragm vs butyl. 100 psi max vs 150 psi. (. Malleable Iron connection (with stainless steel insert) vs stainless steel connection. No multi-dome vs has (https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ell-x-trol-and-champion-pressure-tanks.65692/)

The Water Worker may be the better choice for economy, availablity, and cash flow reasons.