Preassure Tanks n Reserves for long term showers +

[WellDigger]

I have a 50ft well drilled in the 70s with a 17ft head. I assume they figured that was enough at the time, but, I dont trust it to supply large amount of water (just bought the property, havnt tested it, needs a new pump).. I want to put a system on the pump that detects load so when /if the pump runs dry, it is detected and shuts off automatically. Assuming the well will not produce enough water for a good long shower, I want to get a BIG holding tank and let it fill over time to capacity, so there is plenty of reserve.

My question is, whats better, 2 40 gallon tanks or 1 80 gallon tank? I know more parts, a little more price with 2, but on a performance standpoint, curious which is better? Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

I have a 50ft well drilled in the 70s with a 17ft head. I assume they figured that was enough at the time, but, I dont trust it to supply large amount of water (just bought the property, havnt tested it, needs a new pump).. I want to put a system on the pump that detects load so when /if the pump runs dry, it is detected and shuts off automatically.

Those systems exist. You want to use a monitor designed to detect the loss of water, and then to shut down pumping for an interval. It does this by monitoring the power. Cycle Sensor is one such device. http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_sensor.html Pumptec and Pumpsaver Plus are others including http://www.coyotemfg.com/

Regarding using a 119 gallon pressure tank is that while that holds about 30 gallons of water, at any given time it could be nearly empty.

The common way of fear of running out of water is to fill a cistern with the well pump, and supply the house from a pressure pump that draws from the cistern.

I suggest waiting until you find there is actually a problem before going with the cistern. However a big cistern does have the advantage of being there to support fire fighting. California often mandates that.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WellDigger]

I need water right away. I dont have time to test and play around as I am living on the property now. I want to buy one time, install one time and be done. I dont care about complexity and or money. I just want this to be a one time and done project. I am expecting the worst and hoping for the best. Should I just buy 1 80 gallon tank and build a room to handle 2 tanks in the future if I indeed have low water recovery?

If my well happens to be slow on the refill, then I will have to adjust my water usage accordingly. In that case, I plan to use rain water for toilet flushing and kitchen sink use, while the well would be used more for the shower.

California can go suck on a running chainsaw!!!

 

[Reach4]

I would test the well as is to see how much water you get before it runs dry. Maybe fill up some 33 gallon trash cans, but be able to turn off the breaker within a minute of running out of water.

Most showers or baths will use less than 33 gallons.

 

[Valveman]

Reach is giving you good info. If you do have a week producing well, large pressure tank(s) will make your problem worse. If the well is a good producer, there are millions of acre feet of water stored under your feet. Just run the pump wide open with a large valve or multiple taps to get the pressure lower than 30 PSI. This is more water than you will ever use. If the well can supply this much water for several hours or even non stop 24/7/365, then you don't have to worry about the supply of water.

If you can only run the pump a few minutes before the water stops coming out, a cistern is the only way to store water over time, to use at your convenience. A well that only makes 1 GPM can produce 1440 gallons per day. You just need a way to store it and re-pressure it to the house at any rate needed.

Either way, with a low producing or a good well, keeping the pump or pumps from cycling on and off is the best way to make them last an have a dependable supply of water. Supply from the well is not usually the problem, as even a cistern can make a low producing well supply lots of water. When water doesn't come out of the faucet it is usually cause by a failure from the pump cycling on and off too much. With a system that doesn't cycle the pump on and off, you only need like a 4.5 gallon size pressure tank.

 

[Bannerman]

The title of this thread + further comments leads me to understand you are asking if 2-40 gallon pressure tanks will offer better performance to hold more water in reserve than a single 80-gallon pressure tank. While the amount of water stored in either scenario will be approx equal, the water contained in a pressure tank(s) will not really be in reserve.

Because your well system operates over a pressure range such as 30/50 or 40/60 psi, the pressure tank(s) will contain almost 0 water whenever the system pressure has fallen to 30 or 40 psi which will be when the pump is activated by the pressure switch. Once the pump is operating and the system pressure has risen to 50 or 60 psi, the pressure switch will shut off the pump, but 80 gallon pressure tank(s) will only contain a total of approx 20-gallons water. If your pump fails, or if your well runs out of water, that is likely to occur when or shortly after the pressure switch is attempting or has started the pump, while there is little water remaining in the pressure tank to draw from.

The purpose of a pressure tank(s) is to maintain pressure in the plumbing system to provide a limited volume of water immediately whenever water is drawn without needing to always activate the pump. A correctly sized pressure tank will cause the pump to operate for 60-120 seconds to replace the water that was drained from the tank before the pump was activated.

To satisfy your requirement to allow some amount of water to be kept Incase of pump failure or slow well recovery, then utilizing a cistern as was recommended above will be the appropriate method.

While the pump utilized for filling the cistern may utilize a float switch to shut-off the pump when the cistern is full and will therefore not require a pressure switch or pressure tank, a pressure tank and switch will be necessary to operate a 2nd pump which will pump from the cistern to deliver water under pressure to the home fixtures.

 

[WellDigger]

I honestly dont know what I need for a "possible" low producing well. All I know is 1) I want enough water stored for a decent shower before the pump comes on and 2) What I need to do to plan for #1 with a low producing well. Thats basically it.

As for a cistern, it freezes around here at least a month or 2 out of the year, off/on and or weeks at a time. Whatever water and pipes I have will freeze. Also, we lose power around here a LOT. I would need to make some kind of drain system for the pipes/well house to handle freezing when the power goes down. I am still trying to figure this part out.

 

[Valveman]

I am sorry you are still not understanding. You CANNOT install a large enough pressure tank or tanks to make sure the pump does not come on during a long or even a short shower. You cannot count on there being more than 1 gallon in the tank or tanks when you turn on the shower. With a 40/60 pressure switch the pressure tank could be at 41 PSI and only have 1 gallon of water when the shower is turned on. It is just luck of the draw how much water the tank still has in it. Before taking a shower, you would need to turn on a faucet and drain that 1 gallon of water out so the pump will start. Then when the tank(s) are full to 60 PSI, the pressure switch shuts off the pump. Then and only then can you have the full amount of a pressure tank to use for showers or whatever. AND, as you use this water from the tank the shower pressure will continually drop from 60 all the way down to 40 and dismal PSI. The larger the pressure tank(s), the longer you will be at low pressure before the pump starts.

Water comes from the pump and well, not the pressure tank. What you want is for the pump to come on almost as soon as you turn on the shower., and stay on as long as you are in the shower, even if in the shower for a month. The pump is the most happy when it is running continuously 24/7/365. I have one on a stock well that hasn't shut off since 1999. To keep a 10 GPM pump running continuously and not cycle off, you would need to run four 2.5 GPM showers all at the same time. Of course this is impractical, so adding a Cycle Stop Valve will keep the pump running continuously even with just one shower running at a time. When used with a 40/60 pressure switch the CSV can be set to deliver a strong constant 50 PSI to the shower. This will seem so much stronger than when a big tank is emptying or the pump is cycling on and off from 40 to 60 that you will no longer even need soap. Lol!

From the area you are from I doubt you have a low producing well. All you need to do is run multiple taps for several hours to see if the well is a good producer. If the well is a good producer, all you need to do is eliminate the cycling on and off to have good shower pressure for as long a shower as you want. A CSV will eliminate the cycling, allow the use of a very small 4.5 or 10 gallon size pressure tank, saving a bunch of money. The CSV will save even more by making your pump system last several times longer than they are designed to last. But the strong constant pressure and ability to take as long a shower as you want is a real advantage to the CSV.

 

[WellDigger]

Then I dont understand why they have 5 to 30 gallon (actual water volume) tanks to even choose from? Why bother? Should be one size fits all, go talk to your pump!?

Okay, fine, I will go run the tap as soon as I get the pump in and see what it does, not that it apparently would matter if I have a low producing well, without some exotic setup, but, I will do that.

 

[Valveman]

A pressure tanks only function is to limit the on/off cycles of a pump. Tanks are sized for the pump to have a MINIMUM of 60 seconds of run time. A 20 gallon tank that holds 5 gallons is used with a 5 GPM pump and a 80 gallon tank that holds 20 gallons is used with a 20 GPM pump and so on.

Without a CSV, the larger the tank the fewer cycles per day. With a CSV, the tank size is almost a moot point. Just need a large enough tank to supply the ice maker or wash a toothbrush. Everything else is a larger use and water will come straight from the pump while the CSV makes it flow right past the tank.

A low producing well takes considerably more equipment to store and re-pressure the water. But if the well is a good producer all you need is the PK1A to be able to use water anyway you want and take long showers.

 

[Reach4]

I have a 50ft well drilled in the 70s with a 17ft head. I assume they figured that was enough at the time, but, I dont trust it to supply large amount of water (just bought the property, havnt tested it, needs a new pump)..

You would want a 1/2 HP 10 GPM pump.

You often mount the pump about 20 ft above the bottom, but if your fear running out of water is much greater than your trying to avoid sediment, then maybe 10 ft off of the bottom.

If you have a 5 inch or bigger casing, you would best install a "flow inducer". You can search out that term in the search box above.

 

[Reach4]

I have a 50ft well drilled in the 70s with a 17ft head. I assume they figured that was enough at the time, but, I dont trust it to supply large amount of water (just bought the property, havnt tested it, needs a new pump)..

You would want a 1/2 HP 10 GPM pump. That pump could be a "2-wire" pump, which does not need a control box. If you expect to run on a generator much, that could affect your choice.

You often mount the pump about 20 ft above the bottom, but if your fear running out of water is much greater than your trying to avoid sediment, then maybe 10 ft off of the bottom.

If you have a 5 inch or bigger casing, you would best install a "flow inducer". You can search out that term in the search box above.

 

[WellDigger]

I thought there was 2 pages of helpful advice here. Did Hitler come in and exterminate my post(s)????

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

I thought there was 2 pages of helpful advice here. Did Hitler come in and exterminate my post(s)????

The site has had a glitch that was creating double posts of the same info. Admin is working on solving the issue and may have deleted several of the double posts.

 

[WellDigger]

Either they deleted my whole post or stripped this one of 10 comments which were VERY valuable!

 

[Fitter30]

Googled northern virginia frost line is 24" if you wanted to use a cistern just top of it only has to be 30" down ground temp is to warm for freezing. Sample of a below ground potable atmospheric tank. Well pump would be controlled be float switches, pump for tank would be controlled by existing pressure switch and expansion tank. Expansion tank wouldn't be large enough for your needs.

1150 Gallon White Underground Water Tank | Ace AST-1150-1W

www.ntotank.com

 

[Valveman]

I deleted some of the double post. I tried not to delete anything valuable. Did not mean to if I did. Sorry for the problem. But it had me confused for a few days as well.

 

[John Gayewski]

Then I dont understand why they have 5 to 30 gallon (actual water volume) tanks to even choose from? Why bother? Should be one size fits all, go talk to your pump!?

Okay, fine, I will go run the tap as soon as I get the pump in and see what it does, not that it apparently would matter if I have a low producing well, without some exotic setup, but, I will do that.

I'll just add here to maybe help you understand. Even if a pressure tank can hold 30 gal at 50 or 60 psi once it starts to drain down the pressure drops a lot,which will kick the pump on. The only way a larger tank could get you toward your goal (storing enough for a shower) would be if the tank were on top of your house. Or for that matter it would actually have to be way up on a pole. Otherwise your pressure will drop immediately and you won't have a shower.

 

[WellDigger]

Bel

I'll just add here to maybe help you understand. Even if a pressure tank can hold 30 gal at 50 or 60 psi once it starts to drain down the pressure drops a lot,which will kick the pump on. The only way a larger tank could get you toward your goal (storing enough for a shower) would be if the tank were on top of your house. Or for that matter it would actually have to be way up on a pole. Otherwise your pressure will drop immediately and you won't have a shower.

Believe me, I totally understand the "theory", but, according to the wellXtrol site, a WX-350 has a tank volume of 119 gallons and at a 40/60 drawdown is about 31.9 gallons of actual water.

I would assume at the 15 gallon mark, the tank mentioned above would be spitting out "something!? I am not worried about full 60psi pressure for a 30 minute shower party with 6 friends, I just want to make sure that "once the tank is full", I will have enough running water (whatever the pressure) to wash the soap out of my eyes and finish up.

If a shower is average 15 gallons, then how many gallon tank do you have to have to have, assuming your starting from a full tank at 60psi to get through 15 gallons? If it helps, it will be running across a 30ft length of pipe.

Also, I have a Red Lion RL12G05-2W2V 4-inch Submersible Deep Well Pump, 1/2 HP, 12 GPM, 2-Wire, 230 Volt, Steel, 14942402 waiting to go. Hope they are good pumps.

 

[Reach4]

"Assuming you are starting from a full tank" is quite the assumption.

At 15 gallons of water, the tank would be producing water, but the pressure would have dropped from where you started. I don't really see that as a problem myself. There are a lot of showerheads that have a flow regulator that will reduce the change in flow that would happen without the regulator.

Understand that a 1/2 HP 12 GPM pump develops less pressure than a 1/2 HP 10 GPM pump. See the two tables in post #11. A 1/2 HP 12 GPM pump would be between the 10 and the 15. That 1/2 HP 12 GPM pump may be more than powerful enough. It depends on how far down the water is.