Need a new well pump and still can't decide on variable speed or single

[Clydesdale6]

Here is my situation:
Lightning struck well and pump controller needed to be replaced. Pump was found to be "grounded", but working.
I have a single speed 1.5 hp pump that is set at 300 feet in my 345ft well. The well is from 1998 and the pump was replaced 10 years ago.

I have a 12 zone irrigation system and the system is set for a 5 minutes delay between zones to give the well a break. I don't notice any real pressure issues in the house.

I had the controller replaced at the time of the incident about 3 months ago. I have gotten 3 estimates.

I have gotten one for a single speed 1.5hp for $4100, another for variable 2hp capable of average of 16gpm at 70psi for $4600 and another variable speed estimate for $4900.

I have heard about cycle stop valves, but when I ask all 3 well drillers, they are not moved by them and feel they are unnecessary or can cause excessive back pressure into the well and cause issue.

I have seen older posts where the variable speed units have an expensive controller that does not last. Some claim that the variable pump will work much less and last longer. Can someone help me with this. The prices are close enough where money is not the issue. I want to make the right choice.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Sergio Zito]

VFD controllers don’t work on some single phase pumps.
Frnaklin monophase pumps won’t work with non dedicated inverter. They will fail to start the pump as they are high torque motors.
You should check which brand you have installed, and the compatibility.

I think the people you consulted simply don’t understand Cycle stop valves. What is too much back pressure? What are they taking about?
The higher the back pressure, less energy your pump will require.

If you are replacing the whole system I would ask for a good VFD solution. Integrated VFD controller AND pump, with a warranty.

If you want to keep your actual pump, I would consider a Cycle Stop Valve.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WorthFlorida]

A pump in 300 ft down in cold water can run all the time since overheating would never be an issue. A delay between zones causes the pump to cycle more often that actually shortens the life of a motor. The five minute delay between zones is really not needed since most irrigation controllers overlap the end of one zone to the next. It may take 10 or 15 seconds for the zone to be turned off after the next zone started, therefore, you may have a slight pressure drop for a few seconds.

Every system has advantages and disadvantages. If your current set up has worked satisfactory without any issues for a long time why change it? Weight the factor as why a variable speed pump would be beneficial with the extra cost and complexity (failures), is it worth it?

 

[Valveman]

When you purchase what the pump guys are pushing, you are purchasing what makes them the most money, which is the opposite of what is best for the home owner. Of course the installers are not "moved" by a Cycle Stop Valve. A CSV would turn their $4600 3-10 year VFD pump system into a $2500 CSV system that might last 30 years. They are either out right lying about the back pressure from a CSV causing a problem, or don't know enough about pumps to understand the back pressure from a CSV is a good thing, and makes the pump work easier and draw lower amps. Either way, you need to educate yourself on the subject before you get the wool pulled over your eyes.

Don't get me wrong. The constant pressure, small pressure tank, and lack of water hammer from a VFD system are good things compared to the old pressure tank only method. But a simple CSV does the same thing. When there are two or more ways to accomplish a task, the simplest way is always best. Some pump guys don't understand the back pressure from a CSV makes the amps drop the same way reducing the pump speed with a VFD will do. Those are the pump guys who have no business selling something as complicated as a VFD, since they don't understand how it works.

 

[Valveman]

Sometimes delaying a few minutes between zones will give the well time to recover, even though it is not the best thing for the pump. Also it doesn't matter how much water the pump is in or how cool the water, it is the flow of water produced that cools the pump/motor. You can slow the pump, restrict the pump flow, or starve the pump for water up to a point. There must be a sufficient flow being produced to cool the pump/motor or it will melt down while submerged under 300' of 40 degree water. It doesn't take as much as some people think, usually 2HP and smaller motors can stay cool at about 1 GPM flow. However, reducing the pump speed with a VFD requires just as much flow to cool the motor as if the speed was not being reduced.

I understand you are being held hostage. You are out of water and three pump guys are telling you it is either "my way or the highway". The best you can do is get them to put back the old pressure tank only conventional system, and add a CSV later if you want. The only problem with the old pressure tank only method was too much cycling. Adding a Cycle Stop Valve to eliminate cycling makes a fool proof system as it uses the tried and true dependable pressure tank and pressure switch for control.

 

[Clydesdale6]

The good news is that I have water. They replaced the controller 3 months ago and it has been working fine since. But, they say it is "grounded" and drawing too much current and there is no telling how long it will last. But, I do have water. So, any idea how long it can go like this? I know there is no great answer to that though. But, it does give me time to get this done "right". So, I am trying to determine what that is. When I asked about the CSV one of them explained a scenario where it was creating pressure and could damage the well piping.
Are CSV well accepted? I imagine if I call the CSV company with the stop sign logo they will tell me it is the best thing since sliced bread, just as 2 of the 3 pump guys tell me VFD. One of the pump guys says stick with the old single speed pump, but when I mentioned CSV, he did not say much. So, I can try calling him back and get more info on that. Any other thoughts on this?

 

[Reach4]

Some claim that the variable pump will work much less and last longer.

Maybe ask how much for a 5 year service contract. It should be reasonably priced if the odds are strong that the system will survive for 5 years. ;-)

Are guaranteed service contracts common in the industry? You would think they would be.

 

[Valveman]

I am the guy who makes CSV's. But I have been in the well pump and drilling business for 50 years. I also studied Electrical Engineering and sold VFD's for several years before coming up with the CSV as a dependable alternative to VFD's. You don't have to listen to what I or those pump guys say. Just look at a few of these 160 or so references if you want to know what real people think about CSV's.
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

Here is a reference from someone who tried VFD's (Subdrives) and switched to a Cycle Stop Valve.
Changed one SubDrive 75 pump and two Control boxes over 12 years. Was fed up with the cost of SubDrive components (Control boxes $795-1295, $2200+ system), and the proprietary nature of the components. Suffered from lower than expected performance and well documented susceptibility to power fluctuations. Was unable to find replacement pump for this third go-round. Found the CSV1A Kit which allows use of standard well components coupled with the CSV. I replicated my Constant Pressure Manifold and added the CSV components to make up a system for my application. My well is 186FT deep, and 600ft from the house. Was able to source a 3-wire 1.5hp pump and the team rigged my configuration to maintain 60psi (10gal tank). We have incredible improvements in sustained pressure when using exterior garden hoses and use of multiple sources simultaneously (dishwasher, shower, hose etc).

 

[Clydesdale6]

I spoke with a well guy today who feels that the csv may not be a good idea in the northeast. One idea was that the water table fluctuates quite a bit and there may be moments where too much back pressure is fed down the well piping. How could I ensure safety against this? Also, he mentioned these valves have been around a while and used have been used under the name of hydroservants and cycle guards. Are these products the same? His concern was that they require a very clean water source. The idea is that if you have a high iron content or sediment it will plug the valves. The other criticism was that the pressure is regulated by a spring that weakens over time. Can you clarify these issues for me? This particular well drilling company did say they would install one if I wanted it, but they stopped using such products about 10 years ago. This company is suggesting a traditional single speed pump. But, if I wanted a vfd then they would use Goulds Aquavar solo 1as15 . Thanks.

 

[Valveman]

I could have told you what the well guy would say. I have been hearing this stuff for 25 years, and it has never happened even once. Yes the water table fluctuates, which is why we figure the back pressure using the "static" water level, which covers the worst case scenario. Hydroservants were made by Red Jacket and Aquagenies were made by Jacuzzi pumps. After ITT bought out Red Jacket and Franklin bought out Jacuzzi, they discontinued the hydroservant and aquagenie because they are disruptive products. That means they make pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tanks, taking a lot of money away from the pump manufacturers. So they discontinued use of the valves and switched to VFD's, as they further promote planned obsolescence and are much more profitable. Of course much more profitable means a VFD cost the home owner a lot more, which is the goal.

The Cyclegard and a couple others I won't mention are as close to exact copies of a Cycle Stop Valve as these other companies could make. They even copy my installation instructions, so I had to get them copyrighted.

Sand, sediment, and iron would clog the old Hydroservants and Aquagenies, and a couple of the more recent almost copies of the CSV. But the slightly different and patented idea of the CSV eliminates any possibility of clogging the valve. So we don't have those problems. The spring that controls a CSV is high quality and only has about 1/4" of travel. The only way to change the tension of the spring is to heat it up with a torch, which does happen occasionally when pipes are being thawed out after a freeze. Other than that these valves will not change the setting or need any adjustment for 40 years.

Installers who prefer the Goulds Aquavar over the Yaskawa drive do so because the Aquavar has many fewer features and adjustments than a Yaskawa. However, these extra features and adjustments are needed. Being able to fine tune the ramp up and down speeds, sleep mode, carrier frequency, and many other things is the only way to make a variable speed pump system last for even short periods of time. Most installer would have no clue how to do this, so they opt for a more plug and play VFD like the Aquavar, but at a cost. If you do not understand all the complicated intricacies of VFD control, it will bite you in the butt. The homeowner always pays for these problems, so it doesn't matter to the pump man.

I don't blame the pump guy for wanting to stay with the old traditional pressure tank only system. That way he doesn't have to know anything about harmonics, voltage spikes, minimum speeds, reflective waves and many other things that are problems with a VFD. He doesn't even have to know how to figure back pressure like with a CSV. Just sticking any old pump in the well and using a 40/60 pressure switch has always been the norm, no reason to learn anything new and make better pump system for their customers. Most importantly they don't want to add a CSV if they understand it will double or triple the life of the pump, as that is cutting into their income.

Again, ask people who have been using a CSV for decades instead of asking someone who makes more money when things don't work well.

 

[Clydesdale6]

Thank you for the further information. Could I bother you to explain the back pressure issue to me one more time and how I can protect the piping in well. That seems to be the greatest concern that two of the pump guys raised. How do we protect against the fluctuating water table? Which CSV would I be purchasing. I am leaning toward having them install one, as they said they would, but I need to further understand how to make sure it is installed so that my piping is safe. Thanks.

 

[Valveman]

The back pressure is determined by the size of pump and the depth to water. A 10 GPM, 1.5 HP pump can produce a maximum of 242 PSI pressure. That is how much pressure the well pipe will be seeing when using a CSV. Without a CSV the well pipe would still be seeing 190 PSI, so not a lot of difference and the well pipe should handle it fine.

From the 242 PSI number you can subtract the static water level to see the back pressure the CSV and above ground piping will see. With a static water level of say 100', which is the same as 43 PSI, you subtract the 43 from the 242, and the CSV and above piping will see 199 PSI. As long as the pipe is good enough the 199 or 242 PSI is actually good for the pump as it will reduce the amp draw and make the pump/motor run cooler.

The CSV1A itself will wear out quicker if it has more than 125 PSI difference between inlet and outlet. With a 1' static water level the CSV would see 242 PSI, and being set at 50 PSI, would have 192 PSI differential. In these cases we install two CSV1A valves in series. The first one sees the 242 PSI and knocks it down to 150 PSI. Then the second CSV1A sees the 150 PSI and brings it down to the 50 PSI constant you need in the house. This splits the pressure between two CSV's and they will last a long time.

But with a static level of 150' or more, which is the same as 67 PSI, one CSV1A would work as the back pressure would only be 175 PSI. I agree the high static and fluctuating water level makes the back pressure higher, but it is still manageable. Because of this, if you do not have any irrigation or outside water use, the old style large pressure tank only system is probably best for you. A house only uses 300 gallons per day, and a constant pressure system (CSV or VFD) isn't nearly as useful as when irrigating and using thousands of gallons per day.

However, if you just want constant pressure and a smaller tank the CSV is still better than the VFD, especially because of the 300' setting. A deep set pump with a high static may cause high back pressure from a CSV, but the 300' of wire is an even bigger problem when using a VFD. The longer the wire from a VFD to the motor the higher the voltage spikes to the motor. "Ringing" or a "reflective wave" happens on the long wires from a VFD and the 230 volt motor will be running on over 1000 volts, which will greatly shorten the life of the motor.

 

[Clydesdale6]

Forgive my ignorance, I am learning and I appreciate your help. I think the concern was that the static water level can fluctuate, so how do you determine if you are setting the CSV for a safe pressure? Thanks Valveman.

 

[Clydesdale6]

Other idea is, the CSV is supposed to limit the starts and stops, correct. But, does the pump then have to turn on every time water is cracked open. So, with each toilet flush, each 5 seconds class of water, hand wash, etc.... Will that be less pump cycles then just coming on when the tank pressure drops? Thanks again for the education with this.

 

[Valveman]

The 4.5 gallon size pressure tank holds about 1 gallon of water. So the pump will need to come on anytime you use more than 1 gallon of water. So yes if you get up in the middle of the night and flush a toilet, the pump will cycle once. But during the day the pump will cycle once for each water use event. So when you flush a toilet, wash your hands, step into a shower, turn on the washing machine, the pump just stays on until the water use event is finished and all the faucets are closed.

The CSV keeps the pump from cycling over and over for long term uses of water like showers and sprinklers. The small tank makes the pump cycle for each intermittent use of water like a single toilet flush. This is just the opposite of what big pressure tank systems without a CSV will do, as they will cycle the pump on/off repeatedly while showering or sprinkling, but only cycle for maybe every 5 or so intermittent toilet flushes. The number of cycles per day is the same or better when using a CSV. The CSV and small tank just cycles the pump occasionally for small uses, and not for long term uses. While without a CSV long term uses of water cause excessive cycling even though a big pressure tank limits the cycling for intermittent uses like toilets.

We don't care that the static level fluctuates. We just need to figure from the highest level. Any lower level makes the back pressure less. You don't set the CSV for a "safe presure". You figure what the pump you have will do from the highest water level.

 

[Valveman]

Every pump installer in the country who is trying to gig people for the most profit he can, is pushing Variable Speed Pumps using a tiny little pressure tank as the "best way" to control a pump. I rarely see anyone give them a hard time about the tiny little tank used with these systems. I do not understand this as those VFD type pumps don't usually even allow the use of a 20 PSI bandwidth between on and off, which means these tiny tanks are not even supplying as much draw down as they could. A VFD using a "sleep mode" of 10 PSI, is only using 1/2 of the draw down of any tank compared to a 20 PSI bandwidth like when using a regular 40/60 pressure switch.

A 2.2 gallon size tank, which is used with most VFD systems only holds about 1/2 a gallon of water when used with a regular 40/60 pressure switch. When used with a VFD and a bandwidth of only 50/60 that same tank only holds 1/4 of a gallon to use before the pump comes on. This means that a VFD controlled pump DOES come on for EVERY use of water. Just crack the faucet, use more than 1/4 of a gallon, and the pump comes on.

With the CSV system the full draw down of any size tank you choose is able to be used before the pump comes on. So with a 4.5 gallon tank you have to use a full 1 gallon of water before the 40/60 pressure switch turns on the pump. With a 10 gallon size tank there is 2 gallons to use before the pump comes on, and so on and so on no matter what size tank you want to use.

I do not believe large pressure tanks are needed any longer. But I do believe the tank needs to supply at least a gallon or two of water before the pump starts, which is what a CSV system does. A VFD system starts the pump every time a faucet is cracked open, and yet people want to give me a hard time over the small tank on a CSV system. Go figure?